You Hate Me! You Really Hate Me!

[Starlight]

I'm amused at how big a role the White House being decorated in the rainbow flag apparently has in your mind.

I don't at all disagree that gay rights have come a long, long, long way in the last few years, to the point where there is now systemic governmental support for gay people. It's gone from gay people being legally banned from having sex, legally banned from marriage, legally banned from serving in the military, legally able to be fired from their jobs simply for being gay... to the law generally recognizing the rights of gay people. Unfortunately in a lot of states gay people can still be fired from their jobs on the grounds that they are gay.

The media, as you point out, is now generally helpful also. They moved from pretending gay people didn't exist, to portraying weird 1950s stereotypes of gay people occasionally and painting them in a negative light, to now making an effort to ensure they do actually portray gay people in approximately the rate at which they exist and that they portray them normally.

Society has moved so far, so fast, on these issues that the gay activists of 30 years ago probably wouldn't have believed it had you told them. Which is great. I am thankful that my society treats gay minority groups well, just as I am thankful that my society doesn't enslave black people. While neutral treatment, or even affirmative action, can't make up in a few short years for centuries of mistreatment of a minority group, I am very hopeful that gay people born in 20 years time will be able to live totally normal lives without ever once feeling like they are despised or hated by vast parts of society.

But your post seems a bit like "it's been two whole years since slavery was abolished, what are those blacks even complaining about anymore? They're legally protected, and the President supports them. The fact that vast swathes of the country are really angry about them having rights, is irrelevant. And the fact that they still experience huge amounts of discrimination is irrelevant." It's kind of an astonishing level of willful ignorance toward the problems of others that you're showing.

Your collated stories from around the world of every time a Christian ever felt or feared action against them due to their anti-homosexuality stance is amusing. Can the total number of actions against Christians on the issue worldwide be counted on your fingers? Probably more gay kids were kicked out of home by their Christian parents for being gay in a single US state this year than you have fingers. And uncountable Christians around the Western world are still sincerely hoping and actively trying to take away the legal right of marriage from gay people in general.

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

That Christian majority is so persecuted! How dare anyone stop them from persecuting whatever minorities they want!

Once again, who cares what the Christians have to lose at all!

I find that while I am generally a caring "bleeding heart liberal" that I struggle to muster up much sympathy towards those who lack sympathy for others. If they insist on persecuting suffering minorities, then they are evil people who deserve whatever's coming to them.

[Apologiaphoenix]

I'm amused at how big a role the White House being decorated in the rainbow flag apparently has in your mind.

Yes. The leading office in the land making a statement. Do tell me when the White House put up something similar in favor of the Civil Rights Movement.

I don't at all disagree that gay rights have come a long, long, long way in the last few years, to the point where there is now systemic governmental support for gay people. It's gone from gay people being legally banned from having sex, legally banned from marriage, legally banned from serving in the military, legally able to be fired from their jobs simply for being gay... to the law generally recognizing the rights of gay people. Unfortunately in a lot of states gay people can still be fired from their jobs on the grounds that they are gay.

Feel free to state in what states those are. I also don't grant that redefining marriage is a good thing. Homosexuals had the same rights as everyone else with marriage.

The media, as you point out, is now generally helpful also. They moved from pretending gay people didn't exist, to portraying weird 1950s stereotypes of gay people occasionally and painting them in a negative light, to now making an effort to ensure they do actually portray gay people in approximately the rate at which they exist and that they portray them normally.

No. Not really. Homosexuals in TV shows are most often seen as the most wonderful people in the world and anyone who opposes is seen automatically as a bigot. It tells me society is not interested in discussion at all any more.

Society has moved so far, so fast, on these issues that the gay activists of 30 years ago probably wouldn't have believed it had you told them. Which is great. I am thankful that my society treats gay minority groups well, just as I am thankful that my society doesn't enslave black people. While neutral treatment, or even affirmative action, can't make up in a few short years for centuries of mistreatment of a minority group, I am very hopeful that gay people born in 20 years time will be able to live totally normal lives without ever once feeling like they are despised or hated by vast parts of society.

I question that that was there really to begin with. The whole thing is the homosexual movement treats disagreement with behavior as if it means dislike of the person. It doesn't.

But your post seems a bit like "it's been two whole years since slavery was abolished, what are those blacks even complaining about anymore? They're legally protected, and the President supports them. The fact that vast swathes of the country are really angry about them having rights, is irrelevant. And the fact that they still experience huge amounts of discrimination is irrelevant." It's kind of an astonishing level of willful ignorance toward the problems of others that you're showing.

Yes. They are clearly discriminated against. Just look at all the gay pride events and look at all the times that those who disagree are defended by the media. Tell you what, if you're really concerned about poor treatment of homosexuals, go to a Middle Eastern nation. They get far worse treatment there.

Your collated stories from around the world of every time a Christian ever felt or feared action against them due to their anti-homosexuality stance is amusing. Can the total number of actions against Christians on the issue worldwide be counted on your fingers? Probably more gay kids were kicked out of home by their Christian parents for being gay in a single US state this year than you have fingers. And uncountable Christians around the Western world are still sincerely hoping and actively trying to take away the legal right of marriage from gay people in general.

Probably? Good statistics there. As for marriage, again, you can call it that all you want, but I see no reason to think it is that and again, the whole idea still is "Unless you come out and positively affirm what we do, then you hate us." I find it also amusing that for someone who cares about persecution, you don't really care when it comes to Christians.

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

That Christian majority is so persecuted! How dare anyone stop them from persecuting whatever minorities they want!

Sorry, but the persecution is going on from the gay community. But hey, that's okay because it's the homosexuals doing it and those Christians deserve it. Right?

I find that while I am generally a caring "bleeding heart liberal" that I struggle to muster up much sympathy towards those who lack sympathy for others. If they insist on persecuting suffering minorities, then they are evil people who deserve whatever's coming to them.

Q.E.D. Yep. Christians don't have a right to run a business according to their beliefs. How tolerant of you.

[Starlight]

Do tell me when the White House put up something similar in favor of the Civil Rights Movement.

Well they put an African-American president up.

Feel free to state in what states those are [in which people can be fired for being gay].

About half the states lack bans on such discrimination. Map here.

Tell you what, if you're really concerned about poor treatment of homosexuals, go to a Middle Eastern nation. They get far worse treatment there.

Sure. 3rd world nations have 3rd world morals. Everyone knows and agrees that the list of moral problems that Middle Eastern nations have is as long as your arm or longer. Nobody really expects much better from them, in the same way that nobody expects perfect behavior from a 4 year old.

I do hold developed nations to a higher standard, because people here are supposed to know better. So when religious zealots here advocate for immorality in the same way the religious zealots in the Middle East do, they need to be slapped down.

Christians don't have a right to run a business according to their beliefs. How tolerant of you.

You've just suggested that I shouldn't tolerate the immorality of religious zealots in the Middle East, so why should I tolerate it here?

[Apologiaphoenix]

Well they put an African-American president up.

So you're pointing to an event some 50 years after the whole movement. Civil Rights marchers faced fire hoses in the streets. The homosexual community today faces nothing.

About half the states lack bans on such discrimination. Map here.

And? Therefore you think an employer will get away with it these days? No. Every LGBTQ group would have their head.

Sure. 3rd world nations have 3rd world morals. Everyone knows and agrees that the list of moral problems that Middle Eastern nations have is as long as your arm or longer. Nobody really expects much better from them, in the same way that nobody expects perfect behavior from a 4 year old.

I do hold developed nations to a higher standard, because people here are supposed to know better. So when religious zealots here advocate for immorality in the same way the religious zealots in the Middle East do, they need to be slapped down.

Got it. So homosexuals aren't allowed to marry here and you rise up and rush to their defense.

Homosexuals are murdered over there and you say "Children will be children."

Translation: You only want to defend homosexuals in a nation that won't kill you for it all the while calling them intolerant.

You've just suggested that I shouldn't tolerate the immorality of religious zealots in the Middle East, so why should I tolerate it here?

Very good to know you support slavery.

[Jedidiah]

Got it. So homosexuals aren't allowed to marry here and you rise up and rush to their defense.

Homosexuals are murdered over there and you say "Children will be children."

Translation: You only want to defend homosexuals in a nation that won't kill you for it all the while calling them intolerant.

Pretty much sums up the attitude towards Christians versus the attitude towards Muslims. This seems to apply across the spectrum these days.

[Starlight]

Civil Rights marchers faced fire hoses in the streets. The homosexual community today faces nothing.

The most likely type of person to fall victim to a violent hate crime in the US, by far, is an LGBT person. If you had 5 Americans: an LGBT person, a Muslim, an African-American, a Jew, and a Hispanic; then the chances of the LGBT person being victimized by a violent hate crime are as high as the other 4 people put together.

I've never met a gay couple who was willing to walk down the street holding hands. Every one of them I've talked to about it says they wouldn't do it because they feel it would be unsafe. Even in the most "gay-friendly" countries, like the Netherlands (which was the first modern nation to legalize same-sex marriage), polls of gay people report majorities of them feel it's unsafe to hold hands in public.

It's been one whole year now since the right of gay people to marry was recognized nationally in the US. That's not exactly no opposition.

Therefore you think an employer will get away with it these days? No. Every LGBTQ group would have their head.

If only. If it happened in major liberal centers like NY or LA, sure. But if it happened in the Bible Belt? Hardly.

Got it. So homosexuals aren't allowed to marry here and you rise up and rush to their defense.

Homosexuals are murdered over there and you say "Children will be children."

My power to affect change in an enemy nation with a different religion, is approximately zero. Those countries barely have a stable government, the idea of "human rights" and "don't commit genocide" tends to be a foreign concept to them. Trying to ensure they don't kill gay people is about the best that can be hoped for under such circumstances. They are immoral basket-cases and complete disasters and will take decades to fix.

Whereas in modern Western nations, that share a culture and history and language with my own, and which agree on the basic principles like democracy and stable government and human rights, I can be a little more politically useful and try and push to see just and fair policies implemented.

Very good to know you support slavery.

That was uncalled for.

[Apologiaphoenix]

The most likely type of person to fall victim to a violent hate crime in the US, by far, is an LGBT person. If you had 5 Americans: an LGBT person, a Muslim, an African-American, a Jew, and a Hispanic; then the chances of the LGBT person being victimized by a violent hate crime are as high as the other 4 people put together.

And yet your source says

"The majority of victims of violent hate crime in 2003-2011 were Jewish (65%), followed by Hispanic (15%), and African American (13%), however, the rate of violent hate crime victimization was similar for all three groups"

For homosexuals, only two were listed and one is a fraud. http://nypost.com/2013/10/28/uncomfo...hepards-death/

I've never met a gay couple who was willing to walk down the street holding hands. Every one of them I've talked to about it says they wouldn't do it because they feel it would be unsafe. Even in the most "gay-friendly" countries, like the Netherlands (which was the first modern nation to legalize same-sex marriage), polls of gay people report majorities of them feel it's unsafe to hold hands in public.

Yes. It's unsafe. That must be why you can have all those gay pride parades going on with homosexuals openly showing their affection marching down the streets.

Protesters for Civil Rights faced fire hoses and attack dogs.

It's been one whole year now since the right of gay people to marry was recognized nationally in the US. That's not exactly no opposition.

And so your demonstration of great opposition is "We don't feel safe" even though gay pride marches are going on.

Nice to know you base your case on feelings instead of facts.

If only. If it happened in major liberal centers like NY or LA, sure. But if it happened in the Bible Belt? Hardly.

Yes. Because Kim Davis in Kentucky not wanting to grant licenses to homosexuals was definitely ignored. No. It would be proclaimed just as loudly. The south doesn't get a free pass.

My power to affect change in an enemy nation with a different religion, is approximately zero. Those countries barely have a stable government, the idea of "human rights" and "don't commit genocide" tends to be a foreign concept to them. Trying to ensure they don't kill gay people is about the best that can be hoped for under such circumstances. They are immoral basket-cases and complete disasters and will take decades to fix.

Translation: These people will kill me and I care about homosexuals, but I'm not about to go somewhere and complain where my life will be in danger! Better to stay here and complain about Christianity that doesn't kill homosexuals instead of Islam that does.

No. You're just a coward.

Whereas in modern Western nations, that share a culture and history and language with my own, and which agree on the basic principles like democracy and stable government and human rights, I can be a little more politically useful and try and push to see just and fair policies implemented.

See above.

That was uncalled for.

It's very called for. What you said was that if I have a business I want to run according to my Christian worldview, that I must not do it unless I run the business the way you think I should run it. I should be forced to provide the goods and services I owe to the person you think they should go to instead of leaving it to be my choice.

That's slavery.

And you support it.

[Starlight]

And yet your source says

"The majority of victims of violent hate crime in 2003-2011 were Jewish (65%), followed by Hispanic (15%), and African American (13%), however, the rate of violent hate crime victimization was similar for all three groups"

There are two different metrics: Total number of hate crimes against a group (e.g. 4,356 violent hate crimes against African Americans); and number per member of that group (e.g. 11.2 per 100,000 African Americans) which indicates how likely an African American person is to fall victim to a hate crime. There are vastly more Black and Hispanic people than there are LGBT people, and the total number of hate crimes against them is higher, but the rate of victimization is lower.

For homosexuals, only two were listed

The data in the table says 7,231 hate crimes against homosexuals in 2008-2012 according to FBI data. The two explicitly mentioned were high-profile incidents.

and one is a fraud. http://nypost.com/2013/10/28/uncomfo...hepards-death/

That is not a reliable source.

That must be why you can have all those gay pride parades going on with homosexuals openly showing their affection marching down the streets.

The presence of hundreds of other gay people is sufficient to provide temporary safety in numbers, plus the police are usually in attendance.

And so your demonstration of great opposition is "We don't feel safe" even though gay pride marches are going on.

Part of the motivation for such marches is the feelings of gay people that they are not treated equally in society.

Translation: These people will kill me and I care about homosexuals, but I'm not about to go somewhere and complain where my life will be in danger! Better to stay here and complain about Christianity that doesn't kill homosexuals instead of Islam that does.

I'm not going to "go" anywhere. I live in the country I was born in, and I do what's within my power (which frankly isn't much) to get positive political change here, and insofar as I can easily talk to people in other English-speaking countries online, I do. There are lots of problems in many other countries in the world, which do concern me, but there's not a whole lot I can do about it, in general.

What you said was that if I have a business I want to run according to my Christian worldview, that I must not do it unless I run the business the way you think I should run it. I should be forced to provide the goods and services I owe to the person you think they should go to instead of leaving it to be my choice.

That's slavery.

And you support it.

The government sets out basic rules and regulations for how businesses must run. You've chosen to operate a business in your country. So you have to follow the rules and regulations.

OMG, iT's sLaVerY!!! RuN FoR tHe hIlLs!

[Apologiaphoenix]

There are two different metrics: Total number of hate crimes against a group (e.g. 4,356 violent hate crimes against African Americans); and number per member of that group (e.g. 11.2 per 100,000 African Americans) which indicates how likely an African American person is to fall victim to a hate crime. There are vastly more Black and Hispanic people than there are LGBT people, and the total number of hate crimes against them is higher, but the rate of victimization is lower.

Feel free to show them. I see things like the supposed cases of Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin on the news. Don't hear anything about LGBT people, except for faked receipts being left at restaurants.

The data in the table says 7,231 hate crimes against homosexuals in 2008-2012 according to FBI data. The two explicitly mentioned were high-profile incidents.

And one of them I think is a fake.

That is not a reliable source.

Not reliable because....

The presence of hundreds of other gay people is sufficient to provide temporary safety in numbers, plus the police are usually in attendance.

The police were in attendance during Civil Rights marches. They were in attendance to attack the marchers many times. They didn't stop the fire hoses. Again, your data is largely a feeling.

Part of the motivation for such marches is the feelings of gay people that they are not treated equally in society.

Yep. The feeling.

I guarantee you if we had a parade to celebrate heterosexuals we'd be called bigots.

I'm not going to "go" anywhere. I live in the country I was born in, and I do what's within my power (which frankly isn't much) to get positive political change here, and insofar as I can easily talk to people in other English-speaking countries online, I do. There are lots of problems in many other countries in the world, which do concern me, but there's not a whole lot I can do about it, in general.

Coward still. There are homosexuals being put to death and even over here, Christians do not put homosexuals to death, but if Muslims came to power, they surely would.

The government sets out basic rules and regulations for how businesses must run. You've chosen to operate a business in your country. So you have to follow the rules and regulations.

OMG, iT's sLaVerY!!! RuN FoR tHe hIlLs!

Yes. It is slavery. If I own a good or service, you do not have any rights to my good or service. If I don't want to sell it to you or give it to you, then that is my right. If someone tells me I have to do it, then they are forcing me to do what they want me to do with my goods or service. That's their right. If a homosexual bakery or florist or anything else doesn't want to serve me because I oppose homosexual practice, that is their right and I will defend their right. Can I leave a negative Yelp review or something? Sure. Let word of mouth do its job. I don't need the strong arm of the government.

Like I said, you support slavery.

[Roger Viklund]

Which from what I've seen depends on, yep, Clement of Alexandria and Secret Mark. Hard for me to think that I should take his other work seriously if he buys into something largely rejected by scholars across the board and seen as a hoax now. …
Kind of making me think it's not worth the bother.

As for it not being a hoax, we have no manuscripts of Secret Mark. We have no quotes of it. All we have is one reference in Clement of Alexandria and he was in fact known for being naive and gullible. There are enough indications that the claim of it that Smith found is a forgery and one done by Smith himself.

Again, you can laugh about Secret Mark, but if I find someone who's buying into an idea that is known to be false in the field, then it really calls into question their research abilities everywhere else.

But when a greater number of experts in the field say secret Mark is bogus, well the rules change.

One of the problem with this kind of reasoning is of course that there is nothing homosexual or sexual whatsoever, in Secret Mark. You have to have quite a vivid imagination in order to interpret the resurrection scene where Jesus teaches the youth (Lazarus?) the Mystery of the kingdom of God, as a sexual act.

Another problem is the (among Christians?) often repeated misstatements that Secret Mark 1) is seen as a forgery by the “greater number of experts in the field”, 2) is a hoax and 3) is “done by Smith himself”.

I would say that 1), the number of experts on Secret Mark who think it is genuine is at least the same as the number of experts who think it is a forgery (although it’s hard to count, I guess more experts consider it genuine), 2) the hoax hypothesis put forward by Stephen Carlson has been mostly abandoned, even among forgery proponents, and 3) that several investigations have shown that Smith hardly could have forged such a text – even if had wanted to. He simply lacked the (super)expertize needed for such a task.