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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Problems with Penal Substitution.

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  • #31
    What you are describing -- a lack of reason -- is not faith. Your position doesn't have anything more to do with faith than mine.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
      What you are describing -- a lack of reason -- is not faith. Your position doesn't have anything more to do with faith than mine.
      I'm trying to impress upon you that faith is required to believe something about reality that is beyond reason. The redemption is beyond reason and requires faith to believe. I have nowhere stated that faith in itself is a lack of reason. Faith does involve a lack of reason, for faith is a knowledge given beyond reason. Faith in itself is a supernatural gift from God as a theological virtue in man that causes men to believe what God wants them to believe.

      JM

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
        I'm trying to impress upon you that faith is required to believe something about reality that is beyond reason. The redemption is beyond reason and requires faith to believe. I have nowhere stated that faith in itself is a lack of reason. Faith does involve a lack of reason, for faith is a knowledge given beyond reason. Faith in itself is a supernatural gift from God as a theological virtue in man that causes men to believe what God wants them to believe.

        JM
        And what do you think the protestant understanding of faith is? How would you describe faith in the protestant tradition, using your own words?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
          And what do you think the protestant understanding of faith is? How would you describe faith in the protestant tradition, using your own words?
          This is one of the great problems within the Lutheran tradition. It is difficult to actually define what faith is according to Luther. We know according to Lutheran theology

          1) what faith does, such as justify a man, and also

          2) where faith comes from a a gift from God, and

          3) what it is described as in relation to justification as an instrument.

          According to Luther's commentary on Romans, Luther only describes what faith is in accord with faith as being an it -

          Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives
          new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us
          completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits,
          our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with
          it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this
          faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't
          stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone
          asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without
          ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an
          unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good
          works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are.
          Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many
          words.

          Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of
          God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it.
          Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy,
          joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The
          Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you
          freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve
          everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who
          has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to
          separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from
          fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard
          against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough
          to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools.
          Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without
          faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.

          http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/...ther-faith.txt
          Luther comes close to defining what faith is where he says "Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace.", but again, this is merely a description of a human act 'trust' in relation to the divine act of Gods grace. We are never told what faith is in itself. What then is faith in itself according to Lutheran theology? I simply cannot give you an answer from Lutheran theology because Luther got it wrong. Hence Luther's version of what faith is in itself is a fiction (or an error) and therefore unknowable in itself. Of course you are free to correct me on this one if you wish.

          In the Catholic tradition of St Thomas, faith is a theological virtue given as a gift by God, whereby the human intellect acts habitually to believe what God has revealed. Faith is not defined in terms of what it is purported to do as Luther describes faith, but according to the nature of the reality of faith as an infused virtue in the human intellect.

          Just another note in passing. The Council of Trent made statements about Lutheran theology, which include -

          Canon 12.
          If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy,[117] which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

          Canon 13.
          If anyone says that in order to obtain the remission of sins it is necessary for every man to believe with certainty and without any hesitation arising from his own weakness and indisposition that his sins are forgiven him, let him be anathema.

          Canon 14.
          If anyone says that man is absolved from his sins and justified because he firmly believes that he is absolved and justified,[118] or that no one is truly justified except him who believes himself justified, and that by this faith alone absolution and justification are effected, let him be anathema.
          Such statements infer Luther was in error on the meaning of faith in the NT.

          Question - why believe anything Luther taught on theology when

          1) his teaching is at odds with the Catholic Church and

          2) Luther had no authority to do what he did?

          JM
          Last edited by JohnMartin; 06-20-2016, 12:39 AM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by John Martin
            Faith does involve a lack of reason, for faith is a knowledge given beyond reason.
            That is incorrect. Faith is knowledge without sight.

            Romans 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

            There is nothing mystical about it. It just involves believing that God has given you eternal life, and that the life derives from Jesus Christ.

            1 John 5:10-11 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

            Faith in itself is a supernatural gift from God as a theological virtue in man that causes men to believe what God wants them to believe.
            Well, that sounds like Calvinism.

            Please answer my question about how you think a person gets to heaven.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post

              Please answer my question about how you think a person gets to heaven.
              Answered on post 29.

              JM

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                And what do you think the protestant understanding of faith is? How would you describe faith in the protestant tradition, using your own words?
                A good indication of some of the many problems with Lutheran theology is exposed by the historical irony of Martin Luther's theology whereby Luther's intentions only brought about results that are opposite to what Luther wanted. The video, entitled "Martin Luther - Deep in History Talk Featuring Paul Thigpen" is shown below, which discusses some of these problems in a balanced manner.


                "

                A sample of problematic outcomes to Luther's theology includes the following -

                1) Luther rejected the authority of the Church and council's and then set himself up as the ultimate interpreter of scripture. Rom 3:28 - faith alone changed by Luther from his own authority, as doctor above all other doctors.

                2) Moses was to go to the gallows, yet Moses was both a prophet and inspired author.

                3) Luther rejected Revelation, James and Jude and John was the only true gospel.

                4) Luther intended to spread the truth. But promoted error, by teaching that lying is satisfactory to promote the gospel.

                5) Luther championed private interpretation, which spawned many others to interpret the text against Luther's understanding.

                6) Luther in condemning others, would implicitly condemn his own actions.

                7) Luther's actions lead to the greatest confusion and paralyzing subjectivism.

                8) Luther rejected reason with regard to spiritual matters. He burnt the works of St Thomas Aquinas. Will became Lord over intellect.

                9) Luther sought the glory of God, but ended up worshiping men. Man is curved in on itself, to seek God for itself.

                10) Salvation is from the outside, closing the soul in on itself. Faith is the focus of man as the exhausting human work.

                11) Identifies his own personal search for salvation a universal principle for the salvation of all men.

                12) Theology revolved around human corruption. The Father who makes his home in us with the judge who performs a legal fiction. Luther ends up seeking God for Luther's sake and not God's sake.

                13) Luther sought to glorify God's grace, but then limited God's grace to the extrinsic imputation of Christ's righteousness.

                14) Luther sought to lead Christians to hope, but ended up leading them to either despair or presumption due to his scrupulosity. Luther gave up the spiritual struggle, and depended upon faith alone.

                Luther's pride is the cause of his many failures and abundant ironies.

                JM

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
                  The norm is to repent, believe and be baptized. Then keep the commandments of God, whilst participating in the sacramental economy, which consists in the seven sacraments of baptism, confession, confirmation, Eucharist, priesthood, marriage, and anointing of the sick.

                  <snip>
                  ". . . for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." -- Galatians 2:21.

                  ". . . For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 1:17.

                  ". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . ." -- Romans 1:16.

                  ". . . the gospel . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 15;1, 3-4.

                  "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ."-- 1 John 5:1.

                  ". . . Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . ." -- John 3:3.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    @JohnMartin,

                    Hebrews 11 teaches that it is impossible to please God, unless you believe that he will reward your good works. That is what "faith" means. It has nothing to do with mystery, or lack of reason. It just means belief that certain promises are true. Jesus promises that you become a part of his kingdom if you simply believe said promise of said kingdom.

                    Hebrews 11:6
                    But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


                    John 11:25-27
                    Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
                    She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.


                    Yet under your theology, a person could potentially perform a lifetime of good works but still go to hell (if he commits a particular type of sin without confessing).

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      ". . . for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." -- Galatians 2:21.

                      ". . . For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 1:17.

                      ". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . ." -- Romans 1:16.

                      ". . . the gospel . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 15;1, 3-4.

                      "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ."-- 1 John 5:1.

                      ". . . Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . ." -- John 3:3.
                      Quoting texts is not to make an argument.

                      JM

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                        @JohnMartin,

                        Hebrews 11 teaches that it is impossible to please God, unless you believe that he will reward your good works. That is what "faith" means. It has nothing to do with mystery, or lack of reason. It just means belief that certain promises are true. Jesus promises that you become a part of his kingdom if you simply believe said promise of said kingdom.

                        Hebrews 11:6
                        But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


                        John 11:25-27
                        Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
                        She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.


                        Yet under your theology, a person could potentially perform a lifetime of good works but still go to hell (if he commits a particular type of sin without confessing).
                        You have created a false problem by selectively quoting from scripture and ignoring passages that teach one may fall away by sinning.

                        JM

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
                          You have created a false problem by selectively quoting from scripture and ignoring passages that teach one may fall away by sinning.

                          JM
                          ". . . all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. . . ." -- Revelation 21:8

                          ". . . Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. . . ." -- Galatians 5:9-21.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Simply quoting texts does not make an argument.

                            JM

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by John Martin
                              You have created a false problem by selectively quoting from scripture and ignoring passages that teach one may fall away by sinning.
                              There aren't any passages that teach you can lose eternal life by sinning. And your willingness to ignore scripture instead of your own opinions is troubling.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                                There aren't any passages that teach you can lose eternal life by sinning. And your willingness to ignore scripture instead of your own opinions is troubling.
                                Here is a passage that teach one can fall away from salvation.

                                "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27).

                                JM

                                Comment

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