Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Proofs for the Existence of God
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWell maybe, if you want to be technical, but, whether rapid expansion, or blast, it is still energy/matter that is involved.
My only point was that there is no way to empirically know whether the material involved in the blast/expansion is eternal or not."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYes, it is possible that Natural Laws are uncaused and eternally exist. Yes, ultimate Natural Laws govern finite and temporal things.
From the Theist belief perspective God would be the primary eternal cause (Creator) of all things finite and temporal.
Therefore something being the cause of all things finite and temporal does not necessarily conclude that he 'cause' is finite and temporal.
Thereis no proof nor definitive objective evidence that God exists as the eternal cause, nor whether Natural Law is the eternal 'cause.' It remains an open question.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostOn the premise that natural laws are uncaused. No supernatural God or gods would be needed in any way what so ever.
The problem remains that the belief that Natural Law and the nature of our existence is necessarily finite and temporal is an assertion without evidence, and not necessary for the existence of God, and very unconvincing for those who do not believe in God.
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostActually, that's not the case. Matter and energy are the consequence of the Big Bang, on modern cosmology. They arrived after the Big Bang had already started.
This, I can agree with-- since the "material" in question is spacetime, itself.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
The problem remains that the belief that Natural Law and the nature of our existence is necessarily finite and temporal is an assertion without evidence, . . .
. . . and not necessary for the existence of God, and very unconvincing for those who do not believe in God.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostWhat ever evidence one might have can only be finite and temporal. Explain what non-finite and non-temporal evidence would look like.
What do mean?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI can't say that I know, but I don't believe that to be true, do you have a reference for that, a reference that says energy itself is an effect of the Big Bang.
And how would you define spacetime, a substance that expands and warps, as something other than matter?"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostFalse, the known evidence can neither falsifiable, prove nor demonstrates that our natural physical existence and natural laws are either infinite or eternal, nor finite and temporal.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostNonsense. Evidence is always finite and temporal.
False, I realize like seer and others who reject modern math and science, you cling to narrow prejudiced views to justify your agenda. Nonetheless, the evidence is that science, nor any discipline of human knowledge can demonstrate that the nature of our physical existence is finite and temporal, nor infinite and eternal.
You need to defend this assertion by actual objective evidence, and a coherent argument by competent science and math with references outside the self-justification of apologetic circular arguments.
. . . Even the concept of "infinity" requires this finite length term "infinity."
Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-26-2017, 07:40 PM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAbsolutely nonsense! The objective evidence of our physical existence is neither finite and temporal, nor infinite and eternal.
False, I realize like seer and others who reject modern math and science, you cling to narrow prejudiced views to justify your agenda. Nonetheless, the evidence is that science, nor any discipline of human knowledge can demonstrate that the nature of our physical existence is finite and temporal, nor infinite and eternal.
You need to defend this assertion by actual objective evidence, and a coherent argument by competent science and math with references outside the self-justification of apologetic circular arguments.
False, potential infinities are not defined requiring this finite length term "infinity." Even Aristotle realized this, and it is time you do.
Denying what is always finite and temporal does not make it not finite and temporal.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostWhat ever is never complete is never yet infinite.
Denying what is always finite and temporal does not make it not finite and temporal.
For example, consider a continuous, stable orbital path around a permanent celestial object. It is finite, in that it has a perimeter which can be said to be less than some arbitrary Natural number, n. It is infinite in that, being continuous, it is composed of sequence of positions which is greater in number than any arbitrary Natural number, n. It is complete, in that the entire orbital path is coextant. It is not complete, in that the orbiting body will continue along its path indefinitely. And it is temporal, in that it describes the motion of a body through space over time.
Are you yet willing to define precisely what it is you mean by use of these terms?"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostThis depends entirely upon what you mean by "finite," "infinite," "complete," and "temporal."
For example, consider a continuous, stable orbital path around a permanent celestial object. It is finite, in that it has a perimeter which can be said to be less than some arbitrary Natural number, n. It is infinite in that, being continuous, it is composed of sequence of positions which is greater in number than any arbitrary Natural number, n. It is complete, in that the entire orbital path is coextant. It is not complete, in that the orbiting body will continue along its path indefinitely. And it is temporal, in that it describes the motion of a body through space over time.
Are you yet willing to define precisely what it is you mean by use of these terms?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostActually the examle of "infinite" in being continuous is finite and temporal.
Honestly, at this point, I'm not really sure you even understand what the words are supposed to mean."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostWhat do you mean by finite and temporal? You keep using these words without any context as if their invocation alone is enough to settle the question.
Honestly, at this point, I'm not really sure you even understand what the words are supposed to mean.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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