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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    "Finite and temporal with respect to itself, infinite and eternal with respect to its cause." Cause and effect are one!
    JimL,

    Infinite and finite are not the same thing. Eternal and temporal are not the same thing. Something caused is not uncaused. Cause and the effect are not the same thing. What precedes is before what follows is after. Cause is before. Effect is after.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      JimL,

      Infinite and finite are not the same thing. Eternal and temporal are not the same thing. Something caused is not uncaused. Cause and the effect are not the same thing. What precedes is before what follows is after. Cause is before. Effect is after.
      Doesn't matter, if the effect is in its cause, then they are fundamentally one and the same thing, the same substance. There are many different material forms within the material universe, but they are all of one and the same fundamental substance.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Either something is caused or uncaused.
        Well, sure. Even without defining what you mean by "cause," these are logical opposites, so one of them must be true, presuming the term is meaningful.

        Do you know of anything that is not finite? Do you know of anything which is uncaused?
        Plenty of things. But perhaps you are referring to physical entities. If that's the case, I can posit some things which may be infinite or uncaused, but I cannot pretend to know with certainty that they are.

        Both the infinite and uncaused are metaphysical concepts.
        Well, no. These concepts can be applied to metaphysics, sure, but they can just as easily be applied to physics.

        Nothingness, as I understand the term, has no existence. Therefore existence always was.
        A little confusingly stated, but these are confusing topics, so that can certainly be forgiven. I can agree that there was never any time in which nothing existed.

        [The concept of nothingness has an existence as a concept.]
        A bit redundant and obviously tautological, but sure.

        So, I start with uncaused existence.
        Are you saying that you start with some thing which exists without having been caused, or are you claiming the existence, itself, is a thing which exists? The former seems agreeable. The latter would seem to presuppose a Platonist understanding of universals.

        Causes are all finite and temporal.
        You continuously repeat this without ever explaining what you mean. Finite in what manner?

        What ever is not finite and temporal are metaphysical.
        I certainly disagree, here. I can quite easily conceive of something which might be physical, infinite, and atemporal.

        Again, the cosmological "uncaused cause" would have to be eternal in being uncaused.
        I don't see why. It could easily be temporal in being uncaused.

        What is uncaused, as I understand and use the term, has no origin.
        This is very much dependent upon what you mean by "origin," but since none of your other premises make any mention of the term, I fail to see how it is at all relevant.

        And cause to be a cause is [both] finite and temporal.
        Again, finite in what way? What is this supposed to mean?

        Now being "uncaused" and so being "infinite" can be supposed. But being "uncaused" does not necessitate being "infinite," does it?
        Certainly not. But since this would seem to be a point against your argument for God, I'm not sure I understand your point.
        Last edited by Boxing Pythagoras; 03-23-2017, 11:21 AM.
        "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
        --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          At some point there has to be something uncaused. What is uncaused has no origin. Now all causes are finite and temporal in being a cause. Now the cosmological uncaused cause would have to be both eternal without any origin and be finite and temporal.
          I think we might have a semantics issue. What I meant by "uncaused cause" is something which was not caused to come into existence, but which itself can produce causes. Any individual cause may be finite, but alpha might still be around after doing the causing. So if you're hung up on the "cause" thing, forget I mentioned "uncaused cause". The only reason I used the phrase was because I've seen it used with respect to God, and God was not considered to have a finite existence.
          Last edited by Yttrium; 03-23-2017, 11:38 AM.
          Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            Doesn't matter, if the effect is in its cause, then they are fundamentally one and the same thing, the same substance. There are many different material forms within the material universe, but they are all of one and the same fundamental substance.
            Explain how an effect can be its own cause.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
              I think we might have a semantics issue. What I meant by "uncaused cause" is something which was not caused to come into existence, but which itself can produce causes. Any individual cause may be finite, but alpha might still be around after doing the causing. So if you're hung up on the "cause" thing, forget I mentioned "uncaused cause". The only reason I used the phrase was because I've seen it used with respect to God, and God was not considered to have a finite existence.
              OK. But an "uncaused cause" in being a "cause" is being finite and temporal in being that cause. So when, which is also a temporal, what is "uncaused" being "eternal" is not causing anything is not being temporal in that regard. So in either case such an entity must be both "eternal" being uncaused, and "temporal" being a "cause" whether causing something or not. Otherwise such a thing does not exist.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Explain how an effect can be its own cause.
                Natural Law is not an effect in and of itself. There is absolutely no evidence for a prior cause of Natural Law. If you can provide such evidence please do. Without such evidence your just making a assertion based on what you believe.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Natural Law is not an effect in and of itself. There is absolutely no evidence for a prior cause of Natural Law. If you can provide such evidence please do. Without such evidence your just making a assertion based on what you believe.
                  Are you making the assertion that natural laws are uncaused? Natural laws governs finite and temporal things. What is known to be infinite to be governed by natural laws?
                  Last edited by 37818; 03-23-2017, 03:55 PM.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    Explain how an effect can be its own cause.
                    Well look at it this way, where do all the temporal effects within this universe come from? Energy/matter, right? But they not only came from energy/matter, they are enery/matter themselves. Both the cause and effect are the same, the same fundamental substance. The effects, the change of forms occuring within this substance, are only temporal, but the substance itself is eternal. Now you can argue as to whether or not the substance, the energy/matter, is eternal, but I gave you this explanation as an example in answer to your question based on the assumption that it is.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                      You continuously repeat this without ever explaining what you mean. Finite in what manner?
                      Likely temporal.

                      Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                      I certainly disagree, here. I can quite easily conceive of something which might be physical, infinite, and atemporal.
                      Such as?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Well look at it this way, where do all the temporal effects within this universe come from? Energy/matter, right? But they not only came from energy/matter, they are enery/matter themselves. Both the cause and effect are the same, the same fundamental substance. The effects, the change of forms occuring within this substance, are only temporal, but the substance itself is eternal. Now you can argue as to whether or not the substance, the energy/matter, is eternal, but I gave you this explanation as an example in answer to your question based on the assumption that it is.
                        Matter is just another form of energy. Energy is temporal in all its known forms. It is a metaphysical assertion to suppose that what we know as energy is somehow eternal. Are you not supposing some eternal substance which our know energy is of? The Mormon's/The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe in something they call "eternal matter."
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          Are you making the assertion that natural laws are uncaused? Natural laws governs finite and temporal things. What is known to be infinite to be governed by natural laws?
                          Yes, it is possible that Natural Laws are uncaused and eternally exist. Yes, ultimate Natural Laws govern finite and temporal things.

                          From the Theist belief perspective God would be the primary eternal cause (Creator) of all things finite and temporal.

                          Therefore something being the cause of all things finite and temporal does not necessarily conclude that he 'cause' is finite and temporal.

                          Thereis no proof nor definitive objective evidence that God exists as the eternal cause, nor whether Natural Law is the eternal 'cause.' It remains an open question.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            Likely temporal.
                            If that's what he means, then I see no reason to think that a cause cannot be temporally infinite.

                            Such as?
                            If the density of black holes, at the point of singularity, is infinite, then we can define a physical constant-- let's call it B, where B is an infinite Hyperreal number-- which can be used to describe the proportionality of a particular black hole's density in comparison to others. This constant would be physical, infinite, and atemporal.

                            If spacetime is continuous, then is another physical constant, and one which describes the cardinality of the set of all points of spacetime.

                            I'll even pay some credit to views which I don't support. If the A-Theory of time is true and space is continuous, then the number of positions in space occupied by a light-like worldline is physical, infinite, and atemporal.
                            "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                            --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              Matter is just another form of energy. Energy is temporal in all its known forms.
                              Really, and how do you know that? The universe was born of an energy blast, a.k.a. the Big Bang, so whether or not that energy was created or eternal isn't empirically known. The example I gave concerning the effect being in its cause was under the assumption that the energy itself is eternal. If it is eternal, which I suspect it is, then the effect, our particular universe, is in its cause, i.e. in the greater Cosmos of eternal energy.


                              It is a metaphysical assertion to suppose that what we know as energy is somehow eternal. Are you not supposing some eternal substance which our know energy is of? The Mormon's/The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe in something they call "eternal matter."
                              No, I'm assuming that energy/matter itself is eternal and is the cause of all temporal effects that form within it.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Really, and how do you know that? The universe was born of an energy blast, a.k.a. the Big Bang
                                This isn't actually correct. It is, in fact, a common misconception. The Big Bang was not an "energy blast." It was a rapid expansion of space-time.
                                "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                                --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                                Comment

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