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  • Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    This isn't actually correct. It is, in fact, a common misconception. The Big Bang was not an "energy blast." It was a rapid expansion of space-time.
    Well maybe, if you want to be technical, but, whether rapid expansion, or blast, it is still energy/matter that is involved. My only point was that there is no way to empirically know whether the material involved in the blast/expansion is eternal or not.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      Well maybe, if you want to be technical, but, whether rapid expansion, or blast, it is still energy/matter that is involved.
      Actually, that's not the case. Matter and energy are the consequence of the Big Bang, on modern cosmology. They arrived after the Big Bang had already started.

      My only point was that there is no way to empirically know whether the material involved in the blast/expansion is eternal or not.
      This, I can agree with-- since the "material" in question is spacetime, itself.
      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Yes, it is possible that Natural Laws are uncaused and eternally exist. Yes, ultimate Natural Laws govern finite and temporal things.

        From the Theist belief perspective God would be the primary eternal cause (Creator) of all things finite and temporal.

        Therefore something being the cause of all things finite and temporal does not necessarily conclude that he 'cause' is finite and temporal.

        Thereis no proof nor definitive objective evidence that God exists as the eternal cause, nor whether Natural Law is the eternal 'cause.' It remains an open question.
        On the premise that natural laws are uncaused. No supernatural God or gods would be needed in any way what so ever.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          On the premise that natural laws are uncaused. No supernatural God or gods would be needed in any way what so ever.
          Actually this is a possibility and arguments for the existence of a Theistic God need not be described as necessary nor needed from the human perspective, . . . but from the Baha'i perspective the natural of our existence and natural law are eternal aspects of Creation by God, and as God exists Creation exists the same as long as the sun exists there will be a shadow.

          The problem remains that the belief that Natural Law and the nature of our existence is necessarily finite and temporal is an assertion without evidence, and not necessary for the existence of God, and very unconvincing for those who do not believe in God.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
            Actually, that's not the case. Matter and energy are the consequence of the Big Bang, on modern cosmology. They arrived after the Big Bang had already started.
            I can't say that I know, but I don't believe that to be true, do you have a reference for that, a reference that says energy itself is an effect of the Big Bang.
            This, I can agree with-- since the "material" in question is spacetime, itself.
            And how would you define spacetime, a substance that expands and warps, as something other than matter?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

              The problem remains that the belief that Natural Law and the nature of our existence is necessarily finite and temporal is an assertion without evidence, . . .
              What ever evidence one might have can only be finite and temporal. Explain what non-finite and non-temporal evidence would look like.
              . . . and not necessary for the existence of God, and very unconvincing for those who do not believe in God.
              What do mean?
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                What ever evidence one might have can only be finite and temporal. Explain what non-finite and non-temporal evidence would look like.
                What do mean?
                False, the known evidence can neither falsifiable, prove nor demonstrates that our natural physical existence and natural laws are either infinite or eternal, nor finite and temporal.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  I can't say that I know, but I don't believe that to be true, do you have a reference for that, a reference that says energy itself is an effect of the Big Bang.
                  Energy is directly related to the curvature of spacetime. If we presume that spacetime is past-finite and that extrapolating backward through inflation over time leads to a point at which the universe had no size, then there would be no energy at that point.

                  And how would you define spacetime, a substance that expands and warps, as something other than matter?
                  Exactly like that. Spacetime is not matter-- at least, not as the word is used in physics. If one is talking about the broader usage of the word utilized in philosophy, then it is appropriate to refer to spacetime as matter. We just need to be wary of the simple equivocation mistakes this can create.
                  "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                  --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    False, the known evidence can neither falsifiable, prove nor demonstrates that our natural physical existence and natural laws are either infinite or eternal, nor finite and temporal.
                    Nonsense. Evidence is always finite and temporal. Even the concept of "infinity" requires this finite length term "infinity."
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      Nonsense. Evidence is always finite and temporal.
                      Absolutely nonsense! The objective evidence of our physical existence is neither finite and temporal, nor infinite and eternal.

                      False, I realize like seer and others who reject modern math and science, you cling to narrow prejudiced views to justify your agenda. Nonetheless, the evidence is that science, nor any discipline of human knowledge can demonstrate that the nature of our physical existence is finite and temporal, nor infinite and eternal.

                      You need to defend this assertion by actual objective evidence, and a coherent argument by competent science and math with references outside the self-justification of apologetic circular arguments.

                      . . . Even the concept of "infinity" requires this finite length term "infinity."
                      False, potential infinities are not defined requiring this finite length term "infinity." Even Aristotle realized this, and it is time you do.

                      Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=potential+infinity+definition&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS715US715&oq=Potential+infinity&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0l5.12374j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


                      Potentially infinite - is something that is never complete: more and more elements can be always added, but never infinitely many. "For generally the infinite has this mode of existence: one thing is always being taken after another, and each thing that is taken is always finite, but always different.

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-26-2017, 07:40 PM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Absolutely nonsense! The objective evidence of our physical existence is neither finite and temporal, nor infinite and eternal.

                        False, I realize like seer and others who reject modern math and science, you cling to narrow prejudiced views to justify your agenda. Nonetheless, the evidence is that science, nor any discipline of human knowledge can demonstrate that the nature of our physical existence is finite and temporal, nor infinite and eternal.

                        You need to defend this assertion by actual objective evidence, and a coherent argument by competent science and math with references outside the self-justification of apologetic circular arguments.



                        False, potential infinities are not defined requiring this finite length term "infinity." Even Aristotle realized this, and it is time you do.

                        Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=potential+infinity+definition&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS715US715&oq=Potential+infinity&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0l5.12374j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


                        Potentially infinite - is something that is never complete: more and more elements can be always added, but never infinitely many. "For generally the infinite has this mode of existence: one thing is always being taken after another, and each thing that is taken is always finite, but always different.

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        What ever is never complete is never yet infinite.

                        Denying what is always finite and temporal does not make it not finite and temporal.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          What ever is never complete is never yet infinite.

                          Denying what is always finite and temporal does not make it not finite and temporal.
                          This depends entirely upon what you mean by "finite," "infinite," "complete," and "temporal."

                          For example, consider a continuous, stable orbital path around a permanent celestial object. It is finite, in that it has a perimeter which can be said to be less than some arbitrary Natural number, n. It is infinite in that, being continuous, it is composed of sequence of positions which is greater in number than any arbitrary Natural number, n. It is complete, in that the entire orbital path is coextant. It is not complete, in that the orbiting body will continue along its path indefinitely. And it is temporal, in that it describes the motion of a body through space over time.

                          Are you yet willing to define precisely what it is you mean by use of these terms?
                          "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                          --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                            This depends entirely upon what you mean by "finite," "infinite," "complete," and "temporal."

                            For example, consider a continuous, stable orbital path around a permanent celestial object. It is finite, in that it has a perimeter which can be said to be less than some arbitrary Natural number, n. It is infinite in that, being continuous, it is composed of sequence of positions which is greater in number than any arbitrary Natural number, n. It is complete, in that the entire orbital path is coextant. It is not complete, in that the orbiting body will continue along its path indefinitely. And it is temporal, in that it describes the motion of a body through space over time.

                            Are you yet willing to define precisely what it is you mean by use of these terms?
                            Actually the examle of "infinite" in being continuous is finite and temporal.
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              Actually the examle of "infinite" in being continuous is finite and temporal.
                              What do you mean by finite and temporal? You keep using these words without any context as if their invocation alone is enough to settle the question.

                              Honestly, at this point, I'm not really sure you even understand what the words are supposed to mean.
                              "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                              --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                                What do you mean by finite and temporal? You keep using these words without any context as if their invocation alone is enough to settle the question.

                                Honestly, at this point, I'm not really sure you even understand what the words are supposed to mean.
                                We are temporal and finite beings. Our expressions, terms "infinite" and "eternal" express ideas which we in our finite minds are infinite and eternal. The very terms "infinite" and "eternal" as written and spoken are themselves finite and temporal.
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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