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  • Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
    If atheism deals with all concepts of God then it deals with treating god as a creature.

    JM

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
      If atheism deals with all concepts of God then it deals with treating god as a creature.
      And also with treating god as a non-creature, a disembodied spirit, a plurality of creatures, a plurality of non-creatures, a walrus tusk, a philosophical concept, an ever-changing excuse, a property of the universe, a man, a unity, a duality, a trinity, a winged serpent, an unstoppable force, an intelligent shade of blue and a multidimensional carbonara with meatballs.

      It does not "treat God as though he were a creature".

      You were wrong.
      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Roy View Post
        And also with treating god as a non-creature, a disembodied spirit, a plurality of creatures, a plurality of non-creatures, a walrus tusk, a philosophical concept, an ever-changing excuse, a property of the universe, a man, a unity, a duality, a trinity, a winged serpent, an unstoppable force, an intelligent shade of blue and a multidimensional carbonara with meatballs.

        It does not "treat God as though he were a creature".

        You were wrong.
        That would be your version of atheism wouldn't it Roy? If atheism does not "treat God as though he were a creature", then atheism cannot oppose polytheism. Polytheism teaches many gods, which are all reducible to many great creatures. But atheism does oppose polytheism, so it does treat god as though he were a creature and then opposes that option.

        You were wrong and you still are wrong.

        JM

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
          God impacts the world in a manner unlike that of creatures. This is important to highlight the problem with atheism which treats God like an unknowable creature. The atheistic approach is false because atheism treats God as though he were a creature.
          This is a miscommunication issue. I am not saying a god is like a creature, I am saying that both creatures and a god impact the world in some way. That's it. I'm not comparing how they impact it. My point is that we should be able to see evidence of that impact, whether it be miracles, the power of prayer, irreducible complexity, a divine artifact, a designed universe, etc, just as you would see evidence of the impact of a creature by its footprints, trail, feeding, droppings, population, etc.

          The fallacies in your thinking are - 1) You cannot establish that a non-naturalistic being is possible within the naturalist world view. Naturalism assumes only natural causes exist. 2) The inductive method is naturalistic, therefore any supernatural (SN) being does not fall within the inductive method according to the nature of the SN having an essence that is able to be observed. To say a SN thing must be observed within the inductive method is to reduce God to a natural thing. 3) You say **For a god to be an option for deduction, it must be made reasonable that a non-naturalistic being is possible, which can only be arrived at through deductive reasoning, apart from induction. The ** statement denies what you affirm where you say "the only beings we have come across are naturalistic.", for you cannot observe your statement "non-naturalistic being is possible" within an inductive method.

          Once deduction is permitted, then deduction may be used to arrive at truth beyond the inductive method. One such truth is, God is.
          1) Naturalism exists because that's what the evidence indicates. If there was good evidence of non-naturalistic phenomena, that would change the naturalist world view.

          2) The inductive method could be expanded to include the supernatural if any good evidence of the supernatural existed.

          3) I don't understand this point. Could you elaborate if it is still relevant in light of the rest of my reply?

          Tracing one religion from another is simply a false reasoning by assuming common doctrine and practice infers dependence. When common doctrine and practice can also mean men have reason and the two , or three religions came to many similar conclusions apart from any so called evolutionary process. Even if it could be demonstrated that one religion came from another religion, this does not conclude to evolution. For evolution only occurs by a process without reason, via natural selection. Such is not the process of religion which is always dependent upon intellect, and reason and often exists apart from any force of natural selection.

          The evolution of religion is mainly a pagan projection of evolutionary theory into other areas of human activity. Modern paganism has rejected the old gods, and replaced them with a mindless process of ever increasing complexity and activity. That theory is then projected into religion, which historically always (the norm) was religion was revealed by a deity, to bring about some good to humanity that would otherwise not exist, such as salvation. The irony of the pagan claim about religion being a process of evolution is at least two fold 1) religions were historically top down models of reality, which evolutionary theory denies. For evolutionary theory, and atheists to apply evolution to religion, means the theory must be applied to a human activity which expressly rejects evolution's bottom up approach. 2) If religions evolved then evolutionists would all be religious, for religion is part of that process. Yet atheists deny the need for religion. So atheists fall outside of the theory which they affirm, and the religions also deny the theory which atheists affirm. The theory is then not applicable to either religion, nor atheism.
          It looks like you are combining the word evolution, meaning change over time, and the theory of evolution. When I say religion evolved, my point was concerning how we can trace one religion to another.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post

            1) Naturalism exists because that's what the evidence indicates. If there was good evidence of non-naturalistic phenomena, that would change the naturalist world view.
            True

            2) The inductive method could be expanded to include the supernatural if any good evidence of the supernatural existed.
            No good evidence.

            It looks like you are combining the word evolution, meaning change over time, and the theory of evolution. When I say religion evolved, my point was concerning how we can trace one religion to another.
            Sounds like the Baha'i view of religions.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              True
              Psychic Missile - 1) Naturalism exists because that's what the evidence indicates. If there was good evidence of non-naturalistic phenomena, that would change the naturalist world view.
              Then you lads must ignore, not know, or can explain away the miracle of the dancing sun in Fatima.

              The Miracle of the Sun (Portuguese: O Milagre do Sol) was an event which occurred just after midday on Sunday 13 October 1917, reportedly attended by some 30,000 to 100,000 people who were gathered near Fátima, Portugal. Several newspaper reporters were in attendance and they took testimony from many people who claimed to have witnessed extraordinary solar activity.

              According to these reports, the event lasted approximately ten minutes. The three children (Lúcia dos Santos, Jacinta Marto and Francisco Marto) who originally claimed to have seen Our Lady of Fátima also reported seeing a panorama of visions, including those of Jesus, Our Lady of Sorrows, Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, and of Saint Joseph blessing the people.[1]

              The event was officially accepted as a miracle by the Roman Catholic Church on 13 October 1930. On 13 October 1951, the papal legate, Cardinal Tedeschini, told the million people gathered at Fátima that on 30 October, 31 October, 1 November, and 8 November 1950, Pope Pius XII himself witnessed the miracle of the sun from the Vatican gardens.[2][3]
              What are these natural causes of a dancing sun and the many accompanied miracles of healing? Nothing of course, because naturalism is false and super-naturalism is true.

              Or you can explain away the miracle of the tilma at Guadalupe.

              Our Lady of Guadalupe (Spanish: Nuestra Seńora de Guadalupe), also known as the Virgin of Guadalupe (Spanish: Virgen de Guadalupe), is a Roman Catholic title of the Blessed Virgin Mary associated with a venerated image enshrined within the Minor Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City. The basilica is the most visited Catholic pilgrimage site in the world, and the world's third most-visited sacred site.[1][2]
              Good luck with explaining these Catholic miracles away. These are some of the many evidences for the truth of the Catholic faith which completely destroys modern unbelief with its intellectual pretensions. What are these natural causes of the tilma and the accompanied miracle of the mass conversion of the natives? Nothing, simply because the Catholic faith is the one true faith.

              Naturalism is very easy to prove false, and super-naturalism is very easy to prove true. The faith in naturalism is merely a poorly formed opinion that is based upon either ignorance or a dismissive position that ignores the evidence for the supernatural.

              JM
              Last edited by JohnMartin; 06-27-2016, 09:50 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
                Then you lads must ignore, not know, or can explain away the miracle of the dancing sun in Fatima.



                What are these natural causes of a dancing sun and the many accompanied miracles of healing? Nothing of course, because naturalism is false and super-naturalism is true.

                Or you can explain away the miracle of the tilma at Guadalupe.



                Good luck with explaining these Catholic miracles away. These are some of the many evidences for the truth of the Catholic faith which completely destroys modern unbelief with its intellectual pretensions. What are these natural causes of the tilma and the accompanied miracle of the mass conversion of the natives? Nothing, simply because the Catholic faith is the one true faith.

                Naturalism is very easy to prove false, and super-naturalism is very easy to prove true. The faith in naturalism is merely a poorly formed opinion that is based upon either ignorance or a dismissive position that ignores the evidence for the supernatural.

                JM
                No evidence for the supernatural.
                Unless you can provide some.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
                  Then you lads must ignore, not know, or can explain away the miracle of the dancing sun in Fatima.
                  People make things up.
                  People dream and imagine things.
                  People sometimes see what they want or expect to see, not what is actually there.
                  People have fallible senses.
                  People have fallible memories.

                  It's notable that miracles, like sasquatch sightings, have diminished since camera-phones became ubiquitous.
                  Naturalism is very easy to prove false, and super-naturalism is very easy to prove true.
                  Anything is easy to prove if you assume it in advance.
                  Last edited by Roy; 06-28-2016, 06:47 AM.
                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                  seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                    People make things up.
                    People dream and imagine things.
                    People sometimes see what they want or expect to see, not what is actually there.
                    People have fallible senses.
                    People have fallible memories.

                    It's notable that miracles, like sasquatch sightings, have diminished since camera-phones became ubiquitous.Anything is easy to prove if you assume it in advance.
                    The miracles at Fatima and Guadeloupe were both very well documented. The Tilma still exists and is on display today. At Fatima, the two world wars were also predicted and came true. Along with the rise of Communist Russia. There is simply too much circumstantial evidence for anyone who is fair minded to ignore such evidence for the supernatural.

                    JM

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
                      At Fatima, the two world wars were also predicted and came true.
                      It must have been really difficult to predict WWI after it started.
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
                        That would be your version of atheism wouldn't it Roy? If atheism does not "treat God as though he were a creature", then atheism cannot oppose polytheism. Polytheism teaches many gods, which are all reducible to many great creatures. But atheism does oppose polytheism, so it does treat god as though he were a creature and then opposes that option.
                        Even if atheism "treats god as though he were a creature" in the light of polytheism (which it doesn't, since polytheistic religions do not necessarily see the gods as not being creatures) that would not mean that atheism always "treats God as though he were a creature". And if atheism sometimes does not "treat God as though he were a creature" then it is an error to reject atheism because it "treats God as though he were a creature".

                        You were wrong, you continue to be wrong, and your efforts to avoid admitting you were wrong are pathetic.
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
                          Then you lads must ignore, not know, or can explain away the miracle of the dancing sun in Fatima.

                          What are these natural causes of a dancing sun and the many accompanied miracles of healing? Nothing of course, because naturalism is false and super-naturalism is true.

                          Or you can explain away the miracle of the tilma at Guadalupe.

                          Good luck with explaining these Catholic miracles away. These are some of the many evidences for the truth of the Catholic faith which completely destroys modern unbelief with its intellectual pretensions. What are these natural causes of the tilma and the accompanied miracle of the mass conversion of the natives? Nothing, simply because the Catholic faith is the one true faith.

                          Naturalism is very easy to prove false, and super-naturalism is very easy to prove true. The faith in naturalism is merely a poorly formed opinion that is based upon either ignorance or a dismissive position that ignores the evidence for the supernatural.

                          JM
                          So we have reports of people saying they saw something, as recorded by people who benefit from fabrication, and that something can be explained by naturalistic phenomena, and there is no lasting evidence. Therefore, the supernatural? You should respect yourself more than to accept such lacking claims. What makes these claims so much more convincing than the miracles of Islam, Mormonism, or Shintoism?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            It must have been really difficult to predict WWI after it started.
                            Fatima was a miracle regardless of my errors. Many healings occurred, along with drying of the ground and the prophecy of the second world war was fulfilled.

                            JM

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              Even if atheism "treats god as though he were a creature" in the light of polytheism (which it doesn't, since polytheistic religions do not necessarily see the gods as not being creatures) that would not mean that atheism always "treats God as though he were a creature". And if atheism sometimes does not "treat God as though he were a creature" then it is an error to reject atheism because it "treats God as though he were a creature".

                              You were wrong, you continue to be wrong, and your efforts to avoid admitting you were wrong are pathetic.
                              Atheism treats God in opposition to all forms of theism. The false forms of theism limit God's power and knowledge, thereby reducing those gods down to creatures. Atheism then opposes these gods as creatures, for that's what polytheism reduces to - a glorified group of creatures. This is why Sam Harris can refer to God as the spaghetti monster, as that fictional creature of theism.

                              JM

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                                So we have reports of people saying they saw something, as recorded by people who benefit from fabrication, and that something can be explained by naturalistic phenomena, and there is no lasting evidence. Therefore, the supernatural? You should respect yourself more than to accept such lacking claims.
                                So explain all the healings, why the people (30,000-70,000) were not blinded by the vision, the drying of the land, the predictions of the second world war with the accompanied light, with the rise of communist Russia, and the many subsequent healings that have occurred at both Fatima and Lourdes (a separate vision given to St Bernadette).

                                A huge crowd gathered outside in fields called Cova da Iria near Fatima, Portugal on October 13, 1917 to see an apparition of Saint Mary (the Virgin Mary) and witness a miracle she had promised in her previous Fatima apparitions to perform that day. Around midday, a supernatural phenomenon took place with the sun that captured the attention of those gathered there (estimated by the media to be more than 70,000 people) while healing many people in the crowd, witnesses reported. Here's the story of this famous event that has come to be known as the Miracle of the Sun:
                                “The third part of the secret refers to Our Lady's words: ‘If not [Russia] will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated' (13-VII-1917).
                                The miracles were given to benefit a people, yes. But that is what miracles are given for, to benefit those who experience the miracles and for the rest of the world to take note and then convert to God for healing.

                                What makes these claims so much more convincing than the miracles of Islam, Mormonism, or Shintoism?
                                What miracles are you talking about?

                                JM

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