umm, where does the bible say that God will remove his church from the earth?

[mig_killer2]

just wondering.

I mean, think about it. this would be a big thing. The bible woudlen't beat around the bush about it, it would clearly state "GOD IS GOING TO REMOVE HIS CHURCH"

[Raphael]

I see your mistake, you need to look at this with an open mind and then you will see it plainly written out for you. I have done the work for you (from the ESV)

God(1Jn 2:5) Is(1Jn 2:11) Going(1Jn 2:11) To(Rev 2:2) Remove (Rev 2:5) His(Rev 3:5) Church(Rev 3:14)

[The Curtmudgeon]

just wondering.

I mean, think about it. this would be a big thing. The bible woudlen't beat around the bush about it, it would clearly state "GOD IS GOING TO REMOVE HIS CHURCH"

You're so absolutely right -- just like the Bible would clearly state "GOD IS A TRIUNE GOD" if that were true.

The (it's rather surprising how often God expects us to read His Word thoroughly, rather than having it spelt out for us like third-graders) Curtmudgeon

[Dee Dee Warren]

just wondering.

I mean, think about it. this would be a big thing. The bible woudlen't beat around the bush about it, it would clearly state "GOD IS GOING TO REMOVE HIS CHURCH"

It doesn't.

[Glenn P]

You're so absolutely right -- just like the Bible would clearly state "GOD IS A TRIUNE GOD" if that were true.

The (it's rather surprising how often God expects us to read His Word thoroughly, rather than having it spelt out for us like third-graders) Curtmudgeon

The thread starter is perfectly right to raise the question, and dismissals like this are out of place.

There is no place in Scripture where thjios teaching is found - whether in "third grade" language or otherwise. That is why the thread starter has not found it.

Unfortunately, there is a tendency for people to get very creative in order to find their views in Scripture, and to castigate questioners with the accusation that they aren't going deep enough to find it, when the only reason they found it there int he first place is because they expected to find it.

Jack (Yes, that last bit was a reference to you, Curt) Bauer

[The Curtmudgeon]

The thread starter is perfectly right to raise the question, and dismissals like this are out of place.

There is no place in Scripture where thjios teaching is found - whether in "third grade" language or otherwise. That is why the thread starter has not found it.

Unfortunately, there is a tendency for people to get very creative in order to find their views in Scripture, and to castigate questioners with the accusation that they aren't going deep enough to find it, when the only reason they found it there int he first place is because they expected to find it.

Jack (Yes, that last bit was a reference to you, Curt) Bauer

It's alright, Jack, I still love you (as a brother) even when you're wrong.

The (believe me, when I first found the Rapture in the Bible, I wasn't looking for it) Curtmudgeon

[Glenn P]

It's alright, Jack, I still love you (as a brother) even when you're wrong.

Easily said, but we'll see... when the time comes.

[gharfish]

just wondering.

I mean, think about it. this would be a big thing. The bible woudlen't beat around the bush about it, it would clearly state "GOD IS GOING TO REMOVE HIS CHURCH"

Many things are big that the scriptures, OT and New, are very tight-lipped about--even leave them to us, essentially, as mysteries. "Think about it ! "

[Glenn P]

Many things are big that the scriptures, OT and New, are very tight-lipped about--even leave them to us, essentially, as mysteries. "Think about it ! "

Trouble is, the idea of the church being removed from the earth in the rapture while history continues is not mysterious at all. It's easy to come to terms with. It's just not in the Bible. "Think about it!"

[gharfish]

Theonomy, Jack,
I don't care to discuss what has come to be known as Paul's rapture event descriptions to the believers at Corinth and those at Thessalonica.

However, 'for the sake of' mig_killer2, I will say that if no such event happens in the future then the believers living at the time of the end of the age will face the same horrors as unbelievers will be. Jesus will not return before things happen that have not happened yet in human history. Here are some of the events described and given to us in prophecy. They have not occurred in any way shape or form. If it is true prophecy, then these (for ex.) are yet to come. (Or, they must be, rather, as it will turn out, just false prophecies). -- And who knows over what length of time, but.....


mig_killer2: I will focus on Jesus' prophetic statements on the Mount of Olives, and especially those given to John by Jesus, beginning with a (His) post resurrection appearance for this sole purpose (The Rev.)

I'll just thumb around in the NT; am not pulling anything from a book other than my Bible. These have not happened; quite obviously not:

- the kind of sacrilegious abomination done to the Holy Place of the temple just like that done by King Antiochus.
- (1st) 1/4 of all men on earth killed in warfare, famine, and by disease...eaten and ravaged by animals.
- (2nd) 1/3 of the earth burned up--plants consumed.
- (3rd) 1/3 of all sea creatures killed...and 1/3 of the nations' navies destroyed.
- (4th) 1/3 of the fresh waters are poisoned, and by the same proportion dimished light for a prolonged period from the sun (& therefore the moon) and atmosphere, even at night.
- (5th) a 200,000,000 man army, under demonic provocation, kills off another third of all people on earth, then.

If there are believers on earth when these things happen then it will be terrible for them indeed ! It gets worse, right before Jesus returns, but the scriptures (The Rev. of Jesus to John) doesn't indicate that believers will be alive for these additional worldwide trials.

No rapture event ? ...then believers at the closing of the age will take part in what Jesus called, "...great tribulation such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now--no, and never will be [again]. If those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive..."

[The Curtmudgeon]

Easily said, but we'll see... when the time comes.

[Spacefoetus]

Yeh, this is something I've always wondered too. When did the idea of a Rapture first appear in Christian thinking? A lot of people say "It says so in Revelation!" but these people have never actually read it, they just take for granted that its in there. (I'm referring to people my age in church, I'm still in school btw.) As far as i can read, its NOT in their at all.

Is it from a passage in one of Paul's Epistles?

And just wondering- what about the Left Behind series? I've read these books and they were kindof entertaining (although ot amazingly written, and the third one really exaggerates teh usefullness of the Land Rover Range Rover). Does anyone really take these books seriously ie do they represent a good well thouht out view that isn't just the result of taking the Bible hyper-literally?

I have myself down as a partial preterist, but tbh its just cause i read it off tektonics and it seems about right to me, Is their a Rapture in partial preterism? And could someone link me u to a good summery of all the main "End Times" beliefs?

Thanks.

[Raphael]

Yeh, this is something I've always wondered too. When did the idea of a Rapture first appear in Christian thinking? A lot of people say "It says so in Revelation!" but these people have never actually read it, they just take for granted that its in there. (I'm referring to people my age in church, I'm still in school btw.) As far as i can read, its NOT in their at all.

Is it from a passage in one of Paul's Epistles?

The idea primarily comes from Matthew 24:36-44 and Luke 17:22-37

And just wondering- what about the Left Behind series? I've read these books and they were kindof entertaining (although ot amazingly written, and the third one really exaggerates teh usefullness of the Land Rover Range Rover). Does anyone really take these books seriously ie do they represent a good well thouht out view that isn't just the result of taking the Bible hyper-literally?

La-Hayeism (as I call it) should be taken nothing more that fiction (regardless of whether your preterist or dispensationalist)
I know people who literally believe that Left Behind is what will happen and that only the names will need to be changed.

I have myself down as a partial preterist, but tbh its just cause i read it off tektonics and it seems about right to me, Is their a Rapture in partial preterism? And could someone link me u to a good summery of all the main "End Times" beliefs?

Check out Dee Dee's site: http://www.preteristsite.com
This site has a fairly detailed summary of positions http://www.centerce.org/GlossaryLink.htm
There is no rapture in the partial-preterist understanding of things

[Littlejoe]

Theonomy, Jack,
I don't care to discuss what has come to be known as Paul's rapture event descriptions to the believers at Corinth and those at Thessalonica.

However, 'for the sake of' mig_killer2, I will say that if no such event happens in the future then the believers living at the time of the end of the age will face the same horrors as unbelievers will be. Jesus will not return before things happen that have not happened yet in human history.

(snip)

If there are believers on earth when these things happen then it will be terrible for them indeed ! It gets worse, right before Jesus returns, but the scriptures (The Rev. of Jesus to John) doesn't indicate that believers will be alive for these additional worldwide trials.

No rapture event ? ...then believers at the closing of the age will take part in what Jesus called, "...great tribulation such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now--no, and never will be [again]. If those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive..."

Right! either Preterism is right or what you have proposed here is right. Read Rev 20 vs 1-5

Revelation:201-5

1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

© source where applicable

Emphasis mine. You have to ask yourself does the "rapture" involve resurrecting those that are dead? My answer: yes, that's what I always believed.
When does the first resurrection occur? My answer: After Satan is locked up in the pit....after the "Great Tribulation" is over.
What do you conclude from this? My answer: I hope preterism is true

LJ

[Glenn P]

The idea primarily comes from Matthew 24:36-44 and Luke 17:22-37

Let's look at those:

Matthew 24

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Who was taken? Who will be taken? And when?

Realising what this passage meant turned my rapture upside down. It's amazing how one popular song ("I wish we'd all been ready") can skew our exegesis.