John of Patmos...a stoner?

[Spacefoetus]

OK, I remember around last year watching a documentary on Channel 4 about Revelation (from a secular perspective) that critiqued Americas obsession with the End Times, claiming it aided Global Warming poverty ect. and it also offered a historical look at the book of Revelation.

The thing that concerned me most of all though, was the narraters suggestion that Johns visions may have been merely hallucinations caused by the consumption of a particular kind of plant found on Patmos that supposidly cause hallucinations.

I was just wondering- is this situation realistic?

[Spacefoetus]

I have the link to the summuray of the program here.

http://www.channel4.com/culture/micr.../doomsday.html

The bit about the "magic mushrooms" is near the bottom.

[Adrift]

We recently had a thread around here that claimed Moses was a stoner as well. craziness.

[Spacefoetus]

Yeh I saw that one. The Moses thing is a pile of crap, cause drugs can't cause group hallucinations.

But John of Patmos was just one person. Could it be possible?

Or were the visions too specific and full of meaning to be the result of some crazy trip?

[Abigail]

I think I remember watching something like this too. The point about the magic mushrooms is pure speculation from a position of non-belief.

The paragraph you speak of says:

"What is the real source of these ideas that so many people attribute to the book of Revelation? Whoever wrote it sheltered in a cave on the Greek island of Patmos, probably a refugee from Roman occupied Palestine. He is also likely to have consumed the local hallucinogenic magic mushrooms. So rather than taking these bizarre visions literally, it might make more sense to try to understand them in their historical context.

So basically, magic mushrooms were on Patmos and since John was a refugee and wanted for food would've eaten these (were is the evidence for this?), John had a vision and since according to naturalism there is no such thing as a truly supernatural encounter John must have eaten mushrooms.

But why should we take this version over the other since it was not inconsistent for Christians to have visions and indeed John wrote to the seven Churches who knew him and the symbolism in the book is very consistent with that we see throughout the Bible and not 'bizarre' like Channel 4 makes out.

Lastly the Channel 4 view basically assumes the Revelator to be dishonest because if we accept their view that these mushrooms were local and easily obtainable (ie refugees could have eaten them regularly) then he would've known the side effects and known his vision was most likely not from God and yet this is not how it is presented.

[Johnny MacManky]

I didn't see the program, but I take it you're aware that John Allegro (one of the original Dead Sea Scrolls team of translators) wrote a book suggesting that "Jesus" was a code word for "let's go and get stoned on magic mushrooms" (or a concept to that effect). Again, I havn't read his book 'cause it didn't really interest me, but your OP reminded me of the concept.

[Spacefoetus]

Thanks everyone!

Also, I just thought, if you subscribe to the partial preterist view (which I do) then a lot of the prophecies made in Revelation have already come true.

As far as I know magic mushrooms don't enable their user to predict future events.

I didn't see the program, but I take it you're aware that John Allegro (one of the original Dead Sea Scrolls team of translators) wrote a book suggesting that "Jesus" was a code word for "let's go and get stoned on magic mushrooms" (or a concept to that effect). Again, I havn't read his book 'cause it didn't really interest me, but your OP reminded me of the concept.

Hmm no, I've never heard of that actually. But it sounds dodgy if you ask me. After all, wasn't Jesus quite a popular name back then?

If anyones aware of this book please say something. Or make another thread about it or something.

Again, thanks

[rogue06]

This comes up every so often. Including that Ezekiel and Daniel were hallucinating

[Johnny MacManky]

His book The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross relates the development of language on our continent to the development of myths, religions and cultic practices in many cultures. Allegro believed he could prove through etymology that the roots of Christianity, as of many other religions, lay in fertility cults; and that cultic practices, such as ingesting hallucinogenic drugs to perceive the mind of god, persisted into Christian times.

The reaction to The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross ruined Allegro's career. The church found his theory so shocking that the book received instant condemnation instead of scholarly appraisal.

http://johnallegro.org/main/

You'll find plenty about Allegro online, including Christian rebuttals of his ideas.

[Sheepdog]

I was just wondering- is this situation realistic?

More importantly, why would it matter? Just because I can assert an alternative (e.g. Darwin never really sailed to the Galapagos, he just day dreamed that he did) doesn't make it so.

This show sounds really corny. Apocalypticism in the US contributes to global warming? Even if so (and even if global warming is a looming problem) it'd commit the fallacy of appealing to consequences. and should i be cruel by pointing out that America, both as a nation and as individual people, give a lion's share of relief to the impoverished worldwide?

[ApologiaPhoenix]

If a person will not believe the truth, what will he believe?









































Anything else.

[Spacefoetus]

[QUOTE][This show sounds really corny. Apocalypticism in the US contributes to global warming?/QUOTE]

The idea was that becase they believe the End is nigh, they don't care about the enviroment and so drive their gas guzzling cars everywhere. But I think this is taking things a bit too far, i mean to make the program the guy had to make loads of flights that i assume contributed greatly to the "carbon footprint".

Just more filler added to make it look as though Christians are estroying the world.

[Conductor42]

The thing that concerned me most of all though, was the narraters suggestion that Johns visions may have been merely hallucinations caused by the consumption of a particular kind of plant found on Patmos that supposidly cause hallucinations.

I was just wondering- is this situation realistic?

Theoretically, yes.

The Moses thing is a pile of crap, cause drugs can't cause group hallucinations.

That's incorrect. Just trust me on this one. I can tell you some "hypothetical" situations if need be.

Or were the visions too specific and full of meaning to be the result of some crazy trip?

If a person didn't realize that they were intoxicated such a vision is theoretically possible under strong doses of certain hallucinogens.

[Adrift]

Theoretically, yes.

Theoretically just about anything is possible.

That's incorrect. Just trust me on this one. I can tell you some "hypothetical" situations if need be.

So can I, and I disagree. Hallucinogens, in my experience, do not create large group hallucinations except in maybe the vaguest of ways. For instance, everyone in a room may see a carpet or wall undulate, a group of people may hallucinate that tree branches in moon light are reaching towards them, a group of people may share a feeling of dread. I don't know what kind of hallucinogen you'd need for thousands and thousands of people to see a sea parted, or a pillar of fire leading you through a desert at night, or mana dropping from heaven.

If a person didn't realize that they were intoxicated such a vision is theoretically possible under strong doses of certain hallucinogens.

mmm maybe. There is a common misconception driven by popular media, movies, songs, and tv shows, that when on hallucinogens you'll be able to see music and fly over rainbows, and think you're in a cartoon world. Everything is surreal and wonderful. Its nothing like that really. Typically speaking, when you're on a hallucinogen, you know that you are hallucinating. You're vividly aware of your surroundings, everything is just put off kilter. An individual may find that they are far more creative in some sense under an hallucinogen, and write under the influence, or if they close their eyes they may experience visions they didn't know were in their heads.
I think that if a person did not realize that they were intoxicated, they would either believe they were having a spiritual experience of some sort, that they were poisoned, or that they were going crazy.

[Conductor42]

Theoretically just about anything is possible.

Agreed, that's why I put it in bold.

So can I, and I disagree. Hallucinogens, in my experience, do not create large group hallucinations except in maybe the vaguest of ways. For instance, everyone in a room may see a carpet or wall undulate, a group of people may hallucinate that tree branches in moon light are reaching towards them, a group of people may share a feeling of dread.

Or see mushrooms in the night sky, or other interesting things...

I don't know what kind of hallucinogen you'd need for thousands and thousands of people to see a sea parted, or a pillar of fire leading you through a desert at night, or mana dropping from heaven.

Yeah, I don't see that happening under the influence of anything

mmm maybe. There is a common misconception driven by popular media, movies, songs, and tv shows, that when on hallucinogens you'll be able to see music and fly over rainbows,

Maybe on a pretty strong dose of LSD, I've heard some strange things from friends who have tried it

and think you're in a cartoon world.

Salvia Divinorum can make you feel like you're in a cartoon-like world

Everything is surreal and wonderful.

Ecstacy & Marijuana can do that for ya

Typically speaking, when you're on a hallucinogen, you know that you are hallucinating. You're vividly aware of your surroundings, everything is just put off kilter. An individual may find that they are far more creative in some sense under an hallucinogen, and write under the influence, or if they close their eyes they may experience visions they didn't know were in their heads.
I think that if a person did not realize that they were intoxicated, they would either believe they were having a spiritual experience of some sort, that they were poisoned, or that they were going crazy.

Well, there are hallucinogens that will deprive you of the ability to distinguish illusion & reality completely, I've heard that a plant called Datura will do that to ya.