Geisler on DJ's book

[Doubting John]

FYI:

I sent the link of this thread on to Norman Geisler so he can see for himself what TWEB is all about.

[Doubting John]

So have I. The imprint of the back of his hand sure makes a nice addition to your face as did the imprint of my foot in your butt.

Holding, you do not have Matthew's permission to share a personal email here at TWEB. I'll alert him about it.

Nonetheless, since you shared it, let me comment:

Matthew said:

I have decided that out of personal spite for you, I am going to try to destroy the faith of Christians who don't know better. I am going to do whatever I can to damage their faith and "dragging others" with me. If you have a problem with that...good! What is more is that you cannot stop me! I have decided out of spite for you personally, I am going to prey on the faith of the weak, the "frightened sheep" in churches, people who are desperately hurting for answers! I know who they are and I will always think of good ways to damage their faith. I am thinking of sending you postcards through the mail to your address on -- Avenue in Florida everytime I destroy someone's faith. By becoming a biblical scholar, that will make the atheist evangelism all the more effective!

Cheers, Mr. Holding!

Matthew

p.s. I am dead serious about this, too! And you have only yourself to blame. Was it really worth it being an ------- all these years? I guess so! Well, who he sows reaps!

In the first place, this is not the advice I offered to Matthew. My advice helped him decide to shut his blog down, but again I'll not say what it was.

Secondly, is anyone concerned about the effect Holding has on skeptics? Anyone at all?

Dr. Geisler, I don't know if you've ever heard of Holding before, but this hack has this effect on skeptics, and he seems to be Nick's idol in some ways. Holding called Dr. Hector Avalos "Dr. Stupid," and he rails against me for the things I revealed in my book almost every time he can, which I consider to be intellectual bankruptcy.

Anyway, Holding has had the same effect on me as he has on Matthew. I think the sum total of Holding's lifetime efforts as a wannabe apologist will not be in the plus column when Matthew and I are done with our goals to debunk Christianity. I come here to be motivated. Whenever I do he pours gas on the flames of my passion. He makes me want to go for the jugular vein of the faith that inspires him (and his cronies) to personally malign skeptics like me. That's a fact. I've told him. He ignores it. He and others laugh at me.

Wait and see. If you thought my self-published book contained some good arguments that Christian apologists should consider, wait till you get a load of what's coming.

Now watch them throw their flames. They really do not believe me. That is laughable to me. They will not be laughing when I'm done, especially if someone they know abandons the faith because of reading my book. If that happens they can partially thank Holding and Company right here at TWEB.

Laugh away. But he was warned more than a year ago.

Is anyone concerned about this? They should be.

[historic salve]

Dr. Geisler, I don't know if you've ever heard of Holding before, but this hack has this effect on skeptics, and he seems to be Nick's idol in some ways. Holding called Dr. Hector Avalos "Dr. Stupid," and he rails against me for the things I revealed in my book almost every time he can, which I consider to be intellectual bankruptcy.

You're saying JP's behavior caused you and Matthew to remain fundy atheists just to spite him?

You'd make a good lawyer.

[Doubting John]

You're saying JP's behavior caused you and Matthew to remain fundy atheists just to spite him?

You'd make a good lawyer.

Nope. You can't read.

[Mountain Man]

Indeed, I am with Mike on this one, John is honest in his doubts, I find this quite attractive, he may of lied to others, made fake blogs, and cheated on his wife, but indeed have we not all read what the Lord Joshua has spoken?

John 8:7
<< John 7 | John 8 | John 9 >>
7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

and this is spoken for John;

Matthew 21:31 (Show me Matthew 21)
Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Joshua said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you.

How about we not quote verses out of context, O.K.? The Bible is quite clear on how we are to respond to those who repeatedly and willfully sin.

Doubting John, is the Thomas of the Gospels, he has the same skepticism.

Funny thing about "doubting" Thomas, he was ashamed of his skepticism.

[historic salve]

Nope. You can't read.

Matthew's email was very clear. Maybe you're just not as forthright as he is?

[Mountain Man]

Primarily because of literary considerations relating to the textual basis for a virgin birth. It's not simply about rejecting miracles for the sake of rejecting miracles. The actual arguments are off topic for the thread, and will probably be reasonably familiar to most people. I would not expect to be able to convince anyone on the matter anyway; I'm just letting you know about my background.

I'd be happy to go into more detail in another thread sometime, if you like; but I'd be surprised if it was actually new for you.

Cheers -- Sylas

That actually sounds like an interesting topic of discussion. For my part, as I said, it seems that for a Christian to deny the virgin birth is the first step to denying Christianity. If you deny one miracle and one proof of Jesus' divinity then it's a short step to denying other miracles and other proofs. Once you're on that path, questioning the resurrection is probably inevitable, and then that's pretty much the end of it as it was for you.

[Mountain Man]

FYI:

I sent the link of this thread on to Norman Geisler so he can see for himself what TWEB is all about.

It'll be interesting if he has anything to say about your blurb implying that his endorsement was a positive one when from what I gathered, he only endorses your book because it's a good example of how poor skeptical arguments are.

[Doubting John]

It'll be interesting if he has anything to say about your blurb implying that his endorsement was a positive one when from what I gathered, he only endorses your book because it's a good example of how poor skeptical arguments are.

You're trying to get my goat again aren't you? YOU can't read either.

[historic salve]

That actually sounds like an interesting topic of discussion. For my part, as I said, it seems that for a Christian to deny the virgin birth is the first step to denying Christianity. If you deny one miracle and one proof of Jesus' divinity then it's a short step to denying other miracles and other proofs. Once you're on that path, questioning the resurrection is probably inevitable, and then that's pretty much the end of it as it was for you.

I think it's pretty rude of you to question Sylas like this, but that's all I'm going to say about it.

[sylas]

I think it's pretty rude of you to question Sylas like this, but that's all I'm going to say about it.

Thanks, I appreciate that. But don't worry about it... for the record I take no offense at this, and consider it a normal part and parcel of debate in a discussion forum. I don't think its rude.

My major concerns are that this is off topic for this thread; and that I've got some other projects on my plate that take priority. But sometime I think this might be a good discussion topic.

Cheers -- Sylas

[Doubting John]

Matthew's email was very clear. Maybe you're just not as forthright as he is?

My intent is not to prey on the ignorant at all. I'm going for apologists themselves. My aim (whether I achieve this goal or not) is to change the mind of an apologist--a teacher in a college somewhere, whether he or she is an accomplished scholar or not. That's my goal. Whether I achieve it or not, it's still my goal. I think this will happen too, somewhere, sometime. We'll just have to wait and see.

Christian apologetics books are a dime a dozen. Since there are so many Christian authors they can put out 100 books to every skeptical book. But just because they write more than we do doesn't mean their arguments persuade anyone but the already committed. My goal is not to preach to the choir at all. Some skeptics have said they don't like my book too, primarily because I talk about control beliefs and they wish I'd just focus on science and evidence. But I'm not talking to skeptics in it, for the most part.

Anyway, I think my book is the second truly counter-apologetics book on the market in recent decades next to Martin's Case Against Christianity to rival those general apologetics books coming from Geisler, Craig, Moreland, and Copan.

If you think I'm arrogant in saying this, then fine. We'll just wait and see. Yes, I am excited. I think about it all of the time. Wouldn't you, if you thought you had written a good book? Of course you would.

[Doubting John]

If you want to see a summation of the argument in my book you can see it here:

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspo...istianity.html

I'm sure that is a laughable case, right?

[Theostudent]

I come here to be motivated. Whenever I do he pours gas on the flames of my passion.

Please John, stop saying this, JP does not "pour gas on the flames of your passion", JP defends his positions in manner he agrees with, you on the other hand, seem obsessed with him, just drop it man, get on with your life, if you have not found the truth, keep seeking, do not waste your time "debunking" something you already found to be untrue, it is a waste of time.

[Theostudent]

How about we not quote verses out of context, O.K.? The Bible is quite clear on how we are to respond to those who repeatedly and willfully sin.

And, please quote those verses mountain man, and we shall speak of them, also, I would like an explanation on how I quoted those verses out of context.

Funny thing about "doubting" Thomas, he was ashamed of his skepticism.

I will await your argument from scripture with the passages you are speaking of.

When does the bible say;

"and it came to pass, Thomas was ashamed of his skepticism"

Found 3 verses containing ashamed in the Gospels (Matthew - John).
Showing all verses.

Mark 8:38 (Show me Mark 8)
For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”

Luke 9:26 (Show me Luke 9)
For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Luke 16:3 (Show me Luke 16)
And the manager said to himself, ‘What shall I do, since my master is taking the management away from me? I am not strong enough to dig, and I am ashamed to beg.

Found 10 verses containing thomas in the Gospels (Matthew - John).
Showing all verses.

Matthew 10:3 (Show me Matthew 10)
Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;[1]
[1]Some manuscripts Lebbaeus, or Lebbaeus called Thaddaeus

Mark 3:18 (Show me Mark 3)
Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean,

Luke 6:15 (Show me Luke 6)
and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot,

John 11:16 (Show me John 11)
So Thomas, called the Twin,[1] said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”
[1]Greek Didymus

John 14:5 (Show me John 14)
Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?”

John 20:24 (Show me John 20)

Jesus and Thomas
Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin,[1] was not with them when Jesus came.
[1]Greek Didymus

John 20:26 (Show me John 20)
Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.”

John 20:27 (Show me John 20)
Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”

John 20:28 (Show me John 20)
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

John 21:2 (Show me John 21)
Simon Peter, Thomas (called the Twin), Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two others of his disciples were together.