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Cogito ergo sum

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Scientific Fraud...

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  • Scientific Fraud...

    By government scientists no less!

    In late 2014, the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) discovered an issue in its Energy Resources Program’s (ERP) Energy Geochemistry Laboratory in Lakewood, CO, that had been ongoing since 2008. Specifically, a mass spectrometer operator assigned to ERP’s Inorganic Section had been accused of scientific misconduct and data manipulation. Since the Inorganic Section’s work had implications for ERP’s national and international coal and water quality assessments, USGS began to assess the full impact of this incident on the research and assessment projects conducted between 2008 and 2014. It also notified OIG. We subsequently initiated an inspection to determine the impact of the incident on USGS customers, products, and organizational integrity. https://www.doioig.gov/reports/inspe...try-laboratory

    USGS finds data fraud, closes chemistry lab

    Misconduct has led to delays and 1 retraction in environmental quality measurements reports


    Alleged misconduct and data manipulation at a U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) laboratory may have affected thousands of environmental quality measurements processed between 2008 and 2014, according to the Interior Department’s Office of Inspector General (OIG).

    As many as 24 research projects, representing some $108 million in funding for the laboratory, may have been impacted, OIG said earlier this month. “At least seven reports have been delayed, and to date, one report has been retracted.”
    The misconduct, which was discovered by USGS management in 2014, involves analyses performed using inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometry by the Inorganic Section of the USGS Energy Geochemistry Laboratory in Lakewood, Colo.

    http://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i26/U...ud-closes.html
    Last edited by seer; 06-24-2016, 02:07 PM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    By government scientists no less!
    This is the history of science. Scientists do uncover and correct fraud and bad science. This is one of the aspects of the self correcting nature of science.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      By government scientists no less!
      Sounds like a happy ending to me: scientists committed fraud, other scientists uncovered it, the fraudulent scientists were shut down. This is peer-review at work :)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by HumbleThinker View Post
        Sounds like a happy ending to me: scientists committed fraud, other scientists uncovered it, the fraudulent scientists were shut down. This is peer-review at work :)
        Yes, but it is disturbing that scientists are involved in fraud in the first place and one wonders how much other fraud there is out there that is unknown or may never be known.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Yes, but it is disturbing that scientists are involved in fraud in the first place and one wonders how much other fraud there is out there that is unknown or may never be known.
          They are fallible humans. Science takes this into consideration in its scientific methods. Research is redundantly performed all over the world, and over a period of time. Fraud is consistently uncovered by these methods. No, it is very unlikely that fraud is unknown or may never be known. Can you give any possible examples of where fraud may be unknown or never by known?

          The most common fraud uncovered is actually in the applied science, like pharmaceuticals where there is a considerable financial reward for research.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #6
            This contradicts the whole 'the science is settled' trope.


            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            They are fallible humans. Science takes this into consideration in its scientific methods. Research is redundantly performed all over the world, and over a period of time. Fraud is consistently uncovered by these methods. No, it is very unlikely that fraud is unknown or may never be known.
            How would we know if it's not uncovered? How can you possibly give any odds on this - since the total number of fraudulent research results is unknown, you can't make any kind of comparison with the number of non-fraudulent results. You're not doing science here, you're simply asserting something that you have no basis for.

            It can take years or even decades for fraud to be discovered (if it ever is). In the meantime all sorts of decisions may be made that affect all of our futures, based on fraudulent and false research.

            Originally posted by shunyadragon
            Can you give any possible examples of where fraud may be unknown or never by known?

            The most common fraud uncovered is actually in the applied science, like pharmaceuticals where there is a considerable financial reward for research.
            ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
              This contradicts the whole 'the science is settled' trope.




              How would we know if it's not uncovered? How can you possibly give any odds on this - since the total number of fraudulent research results is unknown, you can't make any kind of comparison with the number of non-fraudulent results. You're not doing science here, you're simply asserting something that you have no basis for.

              It can take years or even decades for fraud to be discovered (if it ever is). In the meantime all sorts of decisions may be made that affect all of our futures, based on fraudulent and false research.
              The redundancy of research are continued throughout the world covers most fraud and bad science.

              Your simply asserting things you have no knowledge about. Like seer you basically reject science unless it justifies your agenda.

              Do you have any specific research that you feel may be fraud, instead of using a shotgun to shot at ghosts..
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                This contradicts the whole 'the science is settled' trope.




                How would we know if it's not uncovered? How can you possibly give any odds on this - since the total number of fraudulent research results is unknown, you can't make any kind of comparison with the number of non-fraudulent results. You're not doing science here, you're simply asserting something that you have no basis for.

                It can take years or even decades for fraud to be discovered (if it ever is). In the meantime all sorts of decisions may be made that affect all of our futures, based on fraudulent and false research.
                Unless one wants to allege that scientists the world over are engaged in conspiracy, instances of fraud would tend to be detected in due time, once other scientists start replicating the experiment and find drastically different results.

                It's possible that, say, a recent study about the efficacy of some new drug may be fraudulent. It's highly unlikely that findings which have been independently confirmed for decades--such as evolution and climate change--are fraudulent.
                Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Yes, but it is disturbing that people are involved in fraud in the first place and one wonders how much other fraud there is out there that is unknown or may never be known.
                  FIFY.

                  There's nothing special about scientists here.
                  I'm not here anymore.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                    Unless one wants to allege that scientists the world over are engaged in conspiracy,
                    Not what I said...

                    Originally posted by fm93
                    instances of fraud would tend to be detected in due time,
                    Say, 40 years or more in some cases?

                    Originally posted by fm93
                    once other scientists start replicating the experiment and find drastically different results.
                    What percentage of experiments are actually replicated? Do we know? If we don't, then Shunya's claim is based on air....

                    Originally posted by fm93
                    It's possible that, say, a recent study about the efficacy of some new drug may be fraudulent. It's highly unlikely that findings which have been independently confirmed for decades--such as evolution and climate change--are fraudulent.
                    Piltdown man went undetected for years, at least in part because it fitted within the prevailing paradigm. No-one questioned it because it fitted within what orthodox scientists believed.


                    Shunya claims that it is "...very unlikely that fraud is unknown or may never be known." I'm just questioning his basis for that probability claim.

                    Maybe scientific fraud is a very small fraction of a percent of all research.... but how do we know what percentage that is unless we've uncovered all the fraud?
                    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      The redundancy of research are continued throughout the world covers most fraud and bad science.

                      Your simply asserting things you have no knowledge about. Like seer you basically reject science unless it justifies your agenda.

                      Do you have any specific research that you feel may be fraud, instead of using a shotgun to shot at ghosts..
                      Air Ball!

                      You've just repeated your evidence-free claim about the likelihood of uncovering fraud.

                      You said: " Research is redundantly performed all over the world, and over a period of time. Fraud is consistently uncovered by these methods. No, it is very unlikely that fraud is unknown or may never be known."

                      Got some actual data to support that probability claim in the last sentence?


                      Originally posted by Shunyadragon
                      Like seer you basically reject science unless it justifies your agenda.
                      Let's see some actual evidence for this claim. What science have I rejected? Actual quotes required.
                      ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                        You said: " Research is redundantly performed all over the world, and over a period of time. Fraud is consistently uncovered by these methods. No, it is very unlikely that fraud is unknown or may never be known."

                        Got some actual data to support that probability claim in the last sentence?
                        The redundancy of research and peer review before and after publishing is simply a fact of the history of modern science. Probability has nothing to with this issue.

                        Most of the scientific research is not controversial and the normal redundancy is a matter of course in science, and kind of boring. Controversial subjects and the redundancy of research is well documented such as the Hobbit-like fossils. The controversial discovery brought controversial and conflicting research and even the illegal taking of the fossils. Some of the initial research was bad and misleading with inconsistent dating. Since the research has been intensive and redundant including an intense search for more fossils, which resulted in more finds and better dating.

                        Source: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1027_041027_homo_floresiensis.html


                        Hobbit-Like Human Ancestor Found in Asia
                        Hillary Mayell
                        for National Geographic News
                        October 27, 2004

                        Scientists have found skeletons of a hobbit-like species of human that grew no larger than a three-year-old modern child (See pictures). The tiny humans, who had skulls about the size of grapefruits, lived with pygmy elephants and Komodo dragons on a remote island in Indonesia 18,000 years ago.

                        Australian and Indonesian researchers discovered bones of the miniature humans in a cave on Flores, an island east of Bali and midway between Asia and Australia.

                        The original skeleton, a female, stood at just 1 meter (3.3 feet) tall, weighed about 25 kilograms (55 pounds), and was around 30 years old at the time of her death 18,000 years ago.

                        The skeleton was found in the same sediment deposits on Flores that have also been found to contain stone tools and the bones of dwarf elephants, giant rodents, and Komodo dragons, lizards that can grow to 10 feet (3 meters) and that still live today.

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-27-2016, 05:32 AM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Yes, but it is disturbing that scientists are involved in fraud in the first place and one wonders how much other fraud there is out there that is unknown or may never be known.
                          Until humanity is perfected to some theoretical state where none will commit fraud, there will always be fraud. Scientists are as human as anyone else. What would be more disturbing to me is if fraud was never caught, leading people to have the false impression that scientists are above it all or something and no fraud was being committed. I view it the same as Watergate: it's a stain on the people committing fraud and a merit to the system that enables them to be caught and punished as well as the people who actually did the catching. To this end, It's of special note that the vast majority, if not all, of scientific fraud is caught by other scientists.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            They are fallible humans. Science takes this into consideration in its scientific methods. Research is redundantly performed all over the world, and over a period of time. Fraud is consistently uncovered by these methods. No, it is very unlikely that fraud is unknown or may never be known. Can you give any possible examples of where fraud may be unknown or never by known?

                            The most common fraud uncovered is actually in the applied science, like pharmaceuticals where there is a considerable financial reward for research.
                            I listened to an interesting episode of Hidden Brain that talked about replication (or lack thereof) in science, with particular emphasis on the psychological sciences. I can't remember the general conclusions off the top of my head at the moment, but I do remember it being interesting!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                              It can take years or even decades for fraud to be discovered (if it ever is). In the meantime all sorts of decisions may be made that affect all of our futures, based on fraudulent and false research.
                              What's the alternative in the decision-making process to basing our decisions around research that has a small likelihood of being fraudulent or false? What source of information is of the same or higher quality while being less likely to be fraudulent of false?

                              Comment

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