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Cogito ergo sum

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Is Morality Objective or Relative?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Laws don't need god in order that they be objective. It is objectively true that being murdered or robbed etc. etc., etc, is not a good thing to happen to you, nor is it a good thing for society in general.
    What if you believed that a greater good would come about through your murder?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      Laws don't need god in order that they be objective. It is objectively true that being murdered or robbed etc. etc., etc, is not a good thing to happen to you, nor is it a good thing for society in general.
      That is silly Jim, what if killing you and taking your stuff benefits me? Like what we did to the Native Americans. It was very good for the Europeans and their society.
      Last edited by seer; 06-27-2016, 08:01 PM.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        If the law of God is not objective to mankind then what is it?
        You referred to 'objective morality,' not the Law of God.

        Source: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/


        There does not seem to be much reason to think that a single definition of morality will be applicable to all moral discussions. One reason for this is that “morality” seems to be used in two distinct broad senses: a descriptive sense and a normative sense. More particularly, the term “morality” can be used either

        descriptively to refer to certain codes of conduct put forward by a society or a group (such as a religion), or accepted by an individual for her own behavior, or

        normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.

        © Copyright Original Source



        I can believe in and understand Laws of God.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-27-2016, 08:00 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by HumbleThinker View Post
          Subjective. God is the subject giving us His law, His morality.
          OK, I don't have a problem with that.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            You referred to 'objective morality,' not the Law of God.
            But the law of God or His commands tell us how to treat our fellow man, and how to behave - that is morality. Your religion teaches the same thing, for instance:

            Ye are forbidden to commit adultery, sodomy and lechery. Avoid them, O concourse of the faithful. By the righteousness of God! Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions. This is what the Lord of all mankind hath enjoined upon you, could ye but perceive it. He who relateth himself to the All-Merciful and committeth satanic deeds, verily he is not of Me. Unto this beareth witness every atom, pebble, tree and fruit, and beyond them this ever-proclaiming, truthful and trustworthy Tongue.
            So your god does not permit certain behaviors, certain behaviors are evil. That is moral in nature.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              But the law of God or His commands tell us how to treat our fellow man, and how to behave
              Ok

              - that is morality. Your religion teaches the same thing, for instance:
              No, morality as defined is a human construct.



              So your god does not permit certain behaviors, certain behaviors are evil.
              Ok, but the Baha'i Faith, and my view of the nature of evil is different.

              That is moral in nature.
              No, morality as defined is a human construct.
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-27-2016, 08:43 PM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by HumbleThinker View Post
                What if you believed that a greater good would come about through your murder?
                In this world there is no greater good for an individual than to be alive. Besides that, dying, even at the hands of another, and being murdered against your will, are two different things.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  In this world there is no greater good for an individual than to be alive. Besides that, dying, even at the hands of another, and being murdered against your will, are two different things.
                  I concede the latter. As for the former, some certainly think otherwise. If I may, would you happen to be inspired by objectivism? Your first statement sound like you may. I'm just curious?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    That is silly Jim, what if killing you and taking your stuff benefits me? Like what we did to the Native Americans. It was very good for the Europeans and their society.
                    Because in the long run killing each other does not benefit you or mankind in general. Besides if "good" isn't that which is most benificial to mankind, then what is it? Arbitrary rules?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by HumbleThinker View Post
                      I concede the latter. As for the former, some certainly think otherwise. If I may, would you happen to be inspired by objectivism? Your first statement sound like you may. I'm just curious?
                      No, not if what you mean by objectivism is that the only thing that should matter is ones own self interests, but if you are dead nothing matters.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        No, morality as defined is a human construct.

                        Ok, but the Baha'i Faith, and my view of the nature of evil is different.


                        No, morality as defined is a human construct.
                        No it's not. You just made that up. If God says that A,B,C are wrong behaviors, and E,F,G are good behaviors then that is a God defined morality. And it doesn't matter how you define evil, it is still a moral question, and your God is still defining morality - not humans.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Because in the long run killing each other does not benefit you or mankind in general. Besides if "good" isn't that which is most benificial to mankind, then what is it? Arbitrary rules?
                          How do you know it won't benefit mankind in the long run as the stronger and more clever dominate by killing off the weak, stupid and infirmed? That has been the history of mankind and we seem to be thriving. The fact is Jim, you are no prophet, you can not look into the future and see what kind of effect behaviors we practice today (good or bad) will have. What we did to the Native Americans helped give rise to one of the most powerful, prosperous, stable Nations in human history.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by HumbleThinker View Post
                            What if you believed that a greater good would come about through your murder?
                            There is a contradiction here. Murder by definition is 'wrongful taking the life of another,' and in some cultures includes suicide. Yes, some people commit murder self-justifying that action for the greater good, but nonetheless it is murder. There is also the problem that murder is defined differently by different religions, churches, societies, and cultures. The accusation of wrongful death is common between different groups, when one justifies a death for the greater good.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              No it's not. You just made that up. If God says that A,B,C are wrong behaviors, and E,F,G are good behaviors then that is a God defined morality. And it doesn't matter how you define evil, it is still a moral question, and your God is still defining morality - not humans.
                              I did not make it up

                              Source: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/



                              There does not seem to be much reason to think that a single definition of morality will be applicable to all moral discussions. One reason for this is that “morality” seems to be used in two distinct broad senses: a descriptive sense and a normative sense. More particularly, the term “morality” can be used either

                              descriptively to refer to certain codes of conduct put forward by a society or a group (such as a religion), or accepted by an individual for her own behavior, or

                              normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              The problem is what is claimed as 'Morality from God' is too conflicting between belief systems, vague and poorly defined to be a real workable concept to know exactly what these morals are.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                                The problem is what is claimed as 'Morality from God' is too conflicting between belief systems, vague and poorly defined to be a real workable concept to know exactly what these morals are.
                                It is not about what is workable, it is about the fact that the commands of God are moral in nature. For instance your God says that things like homosexuality, slavery, adultery, etc.. are wrong - those are moral considerations.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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