Pope says Christians should apologize for marginalization of gays

[robrecht]

Very well said, Leonhard.

[Rushing Jaws]

Everybody else ignored Obsidian's post earlier but it has been on my mind: How do we reconcile the general mindset of human dignity with the fact that the Bible did, in fact, call for stoning of gays at one point?

The OT law on the execution of such people - and who exactly is envisaged, anyway ? - has no more authority for Christians than (say) the Middle Assyrian law on the subject. The OT laws are a very poor guide to *Christian* ethics, which is defined by Christ, not by an Ancient Near Eastern law code.

[Rushing Jaws]

It sure sounded like justice to God when He had them executed.

BTW I know how hard it must be to do apologetics for this worthless motormouth pope,

## He is neither "worthless" nor a "motormouth" - a Godsend OTOH, most definitely.

and I just want you to know that I'm enjoying every minute of it. Anti-catholic apologetics hasn't been this easy since the Borgias.

[Rushing Jaws]

I agree with Darth Executor that the Pope makes a joke of the Catholic Church. However, I understand that the usual Catholic cop-out is that "The Pope is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra," which of course the Pope never does, anyway. (So remind me of what the purpose is of even having a Pope?)

## The OP is very much mistaken. Far from making a joke of the CC, the HF is showing her how to be more Christian. No "cop-out" is needed. Popes speak ex cathedra fairly often - canonisations are an example, since on such occasions they speaks with the full exercise of their authority as Popes: when speaking ex cathedra they sometimes exercise infallibility, & sometimes do not.

Not all acts of the man who is Pope are performed as Pope - he is not only Pope, he is also Bishop of Rome, and as such he is a priest. When he hears a confession, he does so as a priest.

Not all Papal acts are of the same weight or force: when the Pope addresses a group of the Faithful in an audience, or gives his approval to a document of the SCDF, or divides or erects or suppresses a diocese, or visits a country, he is acting as Pope, but in different capacities. Papal approval of an addition to the Code of Canon Law is one thing - the canonisation of a Saint is something else. Both are Papal acts - but one is reversible, the other is not. Some Papal acts affect more people than others, because they are more public than others.

[Rushing Jaws]

Then use the terms scripture uses.

## Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek ? Why ? The words of the text are less important than what they denote. The realities denoted by the words in the text, are more important than the words that denote them. "The terms Scripture uses" often have no exact equivalent in other cultures - it does not follow that presbyters in a US Church are not presbyters, because they are not old men. Do all councillors have to gather at city gates, because those in the OT are recorded as doing so ?

[Rushing Jaws]

And lepers too. Don't forget to marginalize the lepers.

And Gentiles. And Samaritans. And women with gonorrhoea and similar conditions. And demoniacs. And anyone else "unclean" or "accursed". In short, all the people whom Jesus did not marginalise, them or their modern equivalents.

[Rushing Jaws]

You're just a fool who mocks God's word.

What, by quoting stuff like: http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-22.htm ?

[Rushing Jaws]

Actually, he stood up for an unrepentant whore in John 8. The passage that Jesus was alluding to in that passage was Deuteronomy 17, where it says that the witnesses have to throw the first stone. So the moral of the story would be that even bad people are entitled to justice and fair procedures. I guess that includes homosexuals.

But the law should still require their execution, when proper proof is presented.

## And Christians wonder that a lot of gay people don't find Christians attractive.... SMH

[Leonhard]

So far nobody has explained to me what is being diluted of Christian teaching, in the Pope's message.

[Leonhard]

To question 1: Yes, most definitely. I am convinced that doing so cannot be separated from Jesus's preaching the Kingdom of God. But that Kingdom is foreshadowed and sketched in Psalm 72, which is drawn upon by both St Matthew & St Luke. The Righteousness & Peace of that Kingdom, the everlasting kingdom of the Son of Man Who is the Messiah-Son of David, cannot be confined to relations between God and man - it is grievously incomplete, even falsified, if it does not have its fullest effects in every way - but that includes letting it be made known in the form of identifying with the poor, the excluded, the despised, the hated. It cannot have limits, just as God's Love in Christ had no limits, but was shown by His Self-identification with crucified (therefore unclean & accursed) criminals.

2. No doubt of it. After the Orlando massacre, a pastor expressed regret that more gay people had not been killed. I found - and still find - this attitude horrifying, and not Christian at all. But one has to be watchful here - such a person is still one's brother in Christ. If the grace of Christ is a reality, one *cannot* say, ever,"I will stand with my gay brethren, but not with that pastor"; all are included in Christ's grace, however horrible their attitudes; it breaks down barriers.

The Church should be the first place where gay Christians - and anyone who is gay - find compassion (IOW, "suffering-with") and understanding. Their burdens, should be the Church's burdens. What they are or do, is beside the point. The Church's compassion has to include everyone - Freemasons, gay activists, abortionists, terrorists, paedophiles, the lot.

IMHO the Pope has shown great courage & graciousness in saying what he did. I totally agree with him. IMHO, far from undermining the Church's teaching (as some fear), he is living it, and thereby confirming it. I hope very much that he will get the Church even more completely involved with gay people - many of whom, after all, are or were Christians.

"But the Church will look stupid" - that doesn't matter; doing the Work of Christ in the Spirit of Christ, matters vastly. The Church has no way of calculating all possible results of seeking to model Christ in the world - she should just do the work He has given her, and let Him "worry" about the consequences.

So much amen!