Announcement

Collapse

Christianity 201 Guidelines

orthodox Christians only.

Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.

The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Pope says Christians should apologize for marginalization of gays

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by seanD View Post
    I give Obsidian the benefit of the doubt and think what he was doing was using hyperbole to show the stark contrast with scripture and what the pope is saying. The church is in a very sensitive catch-22 here. Homosexuality is sin as is clearly described in scripture, on one hand, but on the other, the church is commanded not to judge. The best the church can do is remain neutral or tolerate the behavior the best way it can as it functions in a modern generation that has made the behavior more than acceptable. But society has taken the other extreme and is practically forcing the church to not just tolerate the behavior but accept the behavior as society has accepted it.
    The church is not commanded not to judge.

    This seems to be the direction the pope is going, or this is how it's inevitably perceived (based on other things he's said about the issue), and that's taking it way too far. I think that's what Obsidian was pointing out.
    The pope is a progressive. Since progressivism is not a political stance but a religion, and thus encompasses every aspect of one's life, it is impossible for someone to be both a progressive and a Christian. Progressivism has developed via natural selection to undermine and erode Christianity, so it was inevitable that one of them would end up pope and begin the annihilation of the Catholic Church.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      That's because Obsidian usually says cooky stuff, and he's not worth paying much mind to most of the time.

      We reconcile the mindset of human dignity with the methods of the Old Testament by recognizing that ancient Israel was in holy covenant with God under a theocracy, without a divine intercessor, and without a Holy Spirit to help guide people in correct thought and action. When you live in a world where one bad apple may spoil the bunch, or as Paul might say, a little yeast makes the whole batch rise, then only a few may lead all of society into eternal death. That's also if we're assuming that the exact punishment was always handed out all the time, rather than it being the most severe penalty offered by the court. I don't believe it was, but that's neither here nor there I suppose.
      Overindulgence can (and in fact is) leading all of society into eternal death so this argument is a non-starter.
      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        Everybody else ignored Obsidian's post earlier but it has been on my mind: How do we reconcile the general mindset of human dignity with the fact that the Bible did, in fact, call for stoning of gays at one point?
        There's nothing to recouncile, just like not everything requires capital punishment not everything requires that any particular individual's human dignity be placed above all other considerations.
        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          So, let me ask another question -- while I believe it's proper to treat LBGT persons with dignity, should I be under any pressure whatsoever to put them in positions of leadership in my Church? deacons, assistant pastors, sunday school teachers, disciplers....?
          We as individuals should, without doubt, treat every person with appropriate dignity. This does not have any bearing on whether or not someone should be put in a position of leadership in the church. So no, anyone living a life of open unrepentant sin should be excluded from such positions.
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
            This is what we should be doing to them.

            Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
            We do not live under such laws so it would not be acceptable.
            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              Hmm. Ok. I still think I'm missing something then, because if you agree that both orphans and widows are marginalized and need to be treated a particular way, then why question whether there is such a class of persons?
              The question ignores the reasons people are in marginalized groups. Widows and orphans do not need special treatment because they are marginalized. No one should get special treatment simply because they are marginalized. We marginalize convicted felons, so they are in a marginalized group.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                The question ignores the reasons people are in marginalized groups. Widows and orphans do not need special treatment because they are marginalized. No one should get special treatment simply because they are marginalized. We marginalize convicted felons, so they are in a marginalized group.
                I think you're maybe missing the point. When people talk about those who are "marginalized" they're generally referring to those in society who are ostracized, or snubbed, or even those who've voluntarily chosen to set themselves apart from the rest of society for whatever reason. When Christians talk about reaching out to the marginalized, they don't mean that they're giving these people some sort of special treatment, but that they are giving them them any attention at all is something. When we refer to widows and orphans being marginalized, especially in the NT, we're talking about a class of people who lived within the believing community, but who weren't cared for as those who were not widowed or orphaned. The reason for this is because when a woman was married off to a husband in this culture, her husband was in charge of providing for her. When her husband died, it meant that resources needed to be communally shared to help support her, and people being people, they didn't like doing that. That's why the epistles remind believers of the proper treatment of widows and orphans within the believing community.

                I'm actually a bit surprised that this concept of marginalization isn't more well known. I figured almost everyone here had heard at least one sermon discussing the marginalized and Christian outreach to them.

                That all said, if you read the rest of my posts in this thread, I think you'll find that I too agree that there is a reason why some people are rightly marginalized.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                  We do not live under such laws so it would not be acceptable.
                  What if we passed such laws?
                  "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                  There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                    What if we passed such laws?
                    Then there probably wouldn't be as many gay pride parades.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Then there probably wouldn't be as many gay pride parades.
                      Not many of us would be alive. There were a lot more sins worthy of death under the Mosaic law.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by seanD View Post
                        Not many of us would be alive. There were a lot more sins worthy of death under the Mosaic law.
                        1. Nobody said anything about legislating against them so I'm not sure why you think that not many of us would be alive.
                        2. There weren't that many anyway, and some of the less obvious ones had to do with ritual purity, which makes no sense to legislate against today.
                        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          Not many of us would be alive. There were a lot more sins worthy of death under the Mosaic law.
                          That's basically the thrust of Romans 2.
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            That's basically the thrust of Romans 2.
                            That's a red herring.
                            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I agree with Darth Executor that the Pope makes a joke of the Catholic Church. However, I understand that the usual Catholic cop-out is that "The Pope is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra," which of course the Pope never does, anyway. (So remind me of what the purpose is of even having a Pope?)

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                By the way, I don't pretend to have a fully-formed view of Revelation -- I am still working on it -- but the following passage always reminds me of how the Catholic Church has turned out:

                                Revelation 16:8-9
                                And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
                                [Extreme authoritarianism, 'legalism' based on man-made laws, Purgatory, burning people at the stake for translating Bibles, torturing people]

                                Revelation 16:10-11
                                And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
                                ["Atheists can go to heaven, too," kissing Muslims' feet, etc.]

                                From one extreme to the next.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Thoughtful Monk, 03-15-2024, 06:19 PM
                                35 responses
                                166 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by KingsGambit, 03-15-2024, 02:12 PM
                                4 responses
                                49 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Thoughtful Monk  
                                Started by Chaotic Void, 03-08-2024, 07:36 AM
                                10 responses
                                119 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post mikewhitney  
                                Started by Cow Poke, 02-29-2024, 07:55 AM
                                14 responses
                                71 views
                                3 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by Cow Poke, 02-28-2024, 11:56 AM
                                13 responses
                                59 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Working...
                                X