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The myth of sacraments.

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  • The myth of sacraments.

    Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
    Orthodoxy has some major problems. Apparently an Orthodox Christian can get married up to three times, and they allow contraception. Both are sinful. Orthodoxy does have apostolic succession and the seven sacraments, and Orthodox teaching on many doctrines. But they have historical problems, not unlike Lutheranism.

    JM
    But there are no sacraments. Only what are claimed - where there really are not such a thing as sacraments according to the word of God.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

  • #2
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    But there are no sacraments. Only what are claimed - where there really are not such a thing as sacraments according to the word of God.
    What is a sacrament, IYO?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #3
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        But there are no sacraments. Only what are claimed - where there really are not such a thing as sacraments according to the word of God.
        Despite JM's nonsense post about remarriage and contraception, there are too sacraments. That's just what they are grouped as and called.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          Despite JM's nonsense post about remarriage and contraception, there are too sacraments. That's just what they are grouped as and called.
          No. There are only two sacraments within some versions of Protestantism. There are seven sacraments according to Catholicism. As the Catholic faith is the historical faith, then there are seven and not two sacraments. The sacramental theology of Protestantism is a humanized version of the true sacramental system.

          JM

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          • #6
            Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
            No. There are only two sacraments within some versions of Protestantism. There are seven sacraments according to Catholicism. As the Catholic faith is the historical faith, then there are seven and not two sacraments. The sacramental theology of Protestantism is a humanized version of the true sacramental system.

            JM
            Historical? The Roman Catholic Church didn't even exist until Pope Leo, around AD 460. Maybe as late as Pope Gregory, around AD 590.

            Check the original writings of the apostles. There is nothing sinful about contraception. Baptism of the believer and the Lord's Supper are commanded in Scripture, but aren't anything that I would call a sacrament, nothing supernatural about either one.
            When I Survey....

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            • #7
              Paul seems to describe marriage in sacred terms with an appeal to Genesis in multiple occasions; in 1 Corinthians 6 and Ephesians 5. He seems to describe it as a "mystery" in Ephesians 5:32. I believe there is more to marriage than we often assume (from a sacred point of view.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Despite JM's nonsense post about remarriage and contraception, there are too sacraments. That's just what they are grouped as and called.
                We backward Baptists call them "ordinances", not sacraments.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  We backward Baptists call them "ordinances", not sacraments.
                  You're not backwards, you just desacramentalized them.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Faber View Post
                    Historical? The Roman Catholic Church didn't even exist until Pope Leo, around AD 460. Maybe as late as Pope Gregory, around AD 590.
                    I have no idea why you pick those dates. One could either say that the Roman (Latin) Catholic Church has been around since the beginning (but been in schism since 1054 despite various attempts to rectify that) or from 1054, when it did split. There was a language barrier from about the 4th century, and a resultant slow divergence since then, but both Popes you mention are venerated in the East as saints.
                    Check the original writings of the apostles. There is nothing sinful about contraception. Baptism of the believer and the Lord's Supper are commanded in Scripture, but aren't anything that I would call a sacrament, nothing supernatural about either one.
                    As ordinances, there is indeed nothing supernatural about either one. As sacraments, the Holy Spirit is invoked - which means they are indeed supernatural.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      You're not backwards, you just desacramentalized them.
                      You say the kindest things.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        What is a sacrament, IYO?
                        A term which carries with it a false view of Christian ordinances, baptism (immersion) and observance of the remembrance of Christ's death depicted from the Passover observance. Typically Protestants who use the term mean the same thing as symbolic ordinance which plays no roll in salvation. But because of the false views associated with the use of the term most baptists do not use the term regarding the two ordinances of the Christian faith.

                        Besides in regards to baptism - believers immersion and the observance of the remembrance of Christ's death in metaphor in the Lord's supper they are not in any way to be considered a sacrament as to the words origin and use.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          As ordinances, there is indeed nothing supernatural about either one. As sacraments, the Holy Spirit is invoked - which means they are indeed supernatural.
                          Which is why I refer to them as ordinances.
                          When I Survey....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Here's what the Bible has to say about baptism:

                            Source: Romans 6:4-6 ESV

                            4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

                            © Copyright Original Source


                            In other words, through baptism "our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin." No amount of rationalization is going to make this passage go away.

                            Source: Colossians 2:8-15

                            8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

                            © Copyright Original Source


                            In baptism we "were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands" and "raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God".

                            And finally:

                            Source: 1 Peter 3:18-22


                            18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            So, according to Scripture, in baptism God crucifies our old self so that we are no longer enslaved to sin, circumcises us with a circumcision not made by hands (I.e the circumcision spoken of in Romans 2:29) and raises us to a new life. Oh right, He also saves us.


                            "But baptism saving us would imply that we have to do something to be saved, which would be works salvation!".

                            Not really. Getting baptised is an expression of our faith, and it is not we who work in the act of baptising, but God.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Faber View Post
                              Historical? The Roman Catholic Church didn't even exist until Pope Leo, around AD 460. Maybe as late as Pope Gregory, around AD 590.

                              Check the original writings of the apostles. There is nothing sinful about contraception. Baptism of the believer and the Lord's Supper are commanded in Scripture, but aren't anything that I would call a sacrament, nothing supernatural about either one.
                              I disagree. The Papacy is traceable back to St Peter. There is also early witness to the real presence in the Eucharist, and baptismal regeneration, which most Protestant denominations reject. Church history is consistent with Catholic belief and not the inventions of the many and various Protestant denominations.

                              JM

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