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Apologetics And Personal Testimony

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  • #46
    Originally posted by jpholding View Post
    The Mormons would say the same to you. How do you answer the missionaries that come to your door?
    I have a great time with the Mormons - even led a couple families of them out of Mormonism.

    It's OK to say you'd call one of us.
    So far, never needed to, but I know that's an option.

    My point would be that each of us has a different "Job One."
    Well, sure, so I'm not thrilled with being 'advised' on how to do my "Job One" by somebody whose passion is elsewhere.

    But all those Ones are supposed to call on each other when they need them. Nick and I have been told repeatedly that our Job One doesn't matter.
    And I have said repeatedly that I'm glad there are people who are dedicated to that field.

    Even Mike Licona has been told that much in person. We've seen churches go all out promoting evangelistic events while refusing to do anything for apologetics/discipleship programs. I'm sure you'd be more accommodating, though.
    Absolutely! And I wouldn't presume to "advise" you on how to do your job.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      I have a great time with the Mormons - even led a couple families of them out of Mormonism.
      That's good to know, but how, specifically, would you answer them if THEY said you were selling the Holy Spirit short?

      Absolutely! And I wouldn't presume to "advise" you on how to do your job.
      Rock on. And I'm also sure you wouldn't consider the work Nick and I do so trivial that you'd suggest that, say, I ought to take off six months from it to help a church construct a soccer field in Nicaragua, right?

      Comment


      • #48
        Right. My post isn't written to people like CP. It's for those people who say "All I need is my personal testimony and that's all it will take to lead someone to Jesus."

        Great if it is, but if it isn't, you can be sunk.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by jpholding View Post
          That's good to know, but how, specifically, would you answer them if THEY said you were selling the Holy Spirit short?
          I wouldn't worry about it, because they don't know the Holy Spirit from a phantom blackberry buzz.

          Rock on. And I'm also sure you wouldn't consider the work Nick and I do so trivial that you'd suggest that, say, I ought to take off six months from it to help a church construct a soccer field in Nicaragua, right?
          You really don't have to ask that, do you?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by jpholding View Post
            Nah, you're just a smarter pastor than 99% of them out there is all. I know I could come up to you and mention the Arian heresy and not get a blank stare.
            That's the Nazi's right?


            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by jpholding View Post
              That's good to know, but how, specifically, would you answer them if THEY said you were selling the Holy Spirit short?



              Rock on. And I'm also sure you wouldn't consider the work Nick and I do so trivial that you'd suggest that, say, I ought to take off six months from it to help a church construct a soccer field in Nicaragua, right?
              Personal testimony is not for arguing doctrine. That is what apologetics is for. If you are in such a situation you use apologetics, but when you are trying to connect, you use your personal story. Or if they want to know how your life changed after becoming Christian. The answer is not always "personal testimony" OR "apologetics" it is "whatever the situation calls for"

              If you saw someone struggling with alcoholism and wanted desperately to change, would you just walk up to them and start spouting apologetics at them? I would hope not.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                I wouldn't worry about it, because they don't know the Holy Spirit from a phantom blackberry buzz.
                They'd say the same of you...which leaves us with....? This isn't a trivial question; their whole evangelistic scheme is rooted in the alleged witness of the Holy Spirit, and until recently they were the fastest growing religion in the world. I honestly think you SHOULD worry about it...even if your solution is to pass the question to someone else.

                You really don't have to ask that, do you?
                Obviously not, at least not to get your own answer. The question was intended to be rhetorical, as well as to raise an actual example of what happened to me with a former pastor of mine. Unlike you, he was a horrible example. His sermons were full of mistakes (such as not knowing the name of a heretical group, noted above) and was offended by any correction. One Sunday he preached a children's sermon to the adult congregation. He'd call meetings for new action plans, which he'd then let die off as he continually started new plans. His "signature accomplishment" was putting an electronic sign in front of the church, and he wanted the church to build a gymnasium with a running track around the inside. Within 3 years he "burned out" and had to leave.

                And yes, he really DID say I ought to take 6 months off to build a soccer field in Nicaragua. He was so concerned with recruiting others to his causes that he didn't care about the causes to which they had been assigned by a higher authority.

                As a matter of interest, I'd like to ask some questions by way of comparing your answers to others Nick and I have received....I know the answer may depend on a lot of things, so let me ask first: How many people are in your congregation, and how many are youth?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  That's the Nazi's right?

                  In this case, the grammar Nazis. Out with that apostrophe!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Personal testimony is not for arguing doctrine. That is what apologetics is for. If you are in such a situation you use apologetics, but when you are trying to connect, you use your personal story. Or if they want to know how your life changed after becoming Christian. The answer is not always "personal testimony" OR "apologetics" it is "whatever the situation calls for"
                    Yep, that's absolutely right. To wit:

                    If you saw someone struggling with alcoholism and wanted desperately to change, would you just walk up to them and start spouting apologetics at them? I would hope not.
                    Nope. Maybe, they might be interested in knowing what the Bible says about alcohol, and to that extent, the material I wrote on that (http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowine.php) may be of some use or interest to them; but I'd only bring that up if they asked relevant questions for which that was an answer. These days I see apologetics material useful more in the role of post-conversion discipleship -- but I hardly find any churches interested in THAT, either.

                    Beyond that, I'd call you or Cow Poke in anyway, because I really don't "get" the struggle with things like alcohol and drugs. For a lot of my mystery shops I'm required to order an alcoholic drink. I nearly always get a rum and coke and I don't find that the rum adds anything to it or does anything for me, other than maybe clear my sinuses a bit. If I have to have alcohol I'd rather it be a creme de menthe.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I agree about alcoholism. Allie attends Overeaters Anonymous now which is based on Alcoholics Anonymous. If I have to say anything, I say it on sound thinking and such. I do give that perspective, but mainly I prefer to just listen.

                      But to get to what JPH was saying, my experience was being in a small group and seeing people talk about how to do evangelism and the only aspect mentioned was personal testimony. When I dared to start to suggest apologetics also, I was cut off and told what I was saying wasn't really relevant. This was the same group that when Allie was having a crisis of faith at one time she was not welcomed well because....well....I guess they don't like hearing that. It was also a group where a lady once said that she was saved and her children were saved so she was just going to sit back and wait for Jesus to come.

                      This is what JPH and I are up against.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                        I agree about alcoholism. Allie attends Overeaters Anonymous now which is based on Alcoholics Anonymous. If I have to say anything, I say it on sound thinking and such. I do give that perspective, but mainly I prefer to just listen.

                        But to get to what JPH was saying, my experience was being in a small group and seeing people talk about how to do evangelism and the only aspect mentioned was personal testimony. When I dared to start to suggest apologetics also, I was cut off and told what I was saying wasn't really relevant. This was the same group that when Allie was having a crisis of faith at one time she was not welcomed well because....well....I guess they don't like hearing that. It was also a group where a lady once said that she was saved and her children were saved so she was just going to sit back and wait for Jesus to come.

                        This is what JPH and I are up against.
                        Yeah there are always groups like that. They also tend to have sermons about touchy-feely things instead of the meat of the Gospel. Pretty much like Joel Olsteen. They only want the happy, summertime Christianity. When things go bad, they are either shocked, or they claim they are being attacked by Satan and their faith needs to be stronger.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Yep yep yep.

                          Joyce Meyer says Satan ruined her family barbecue, and that the Holy Spirit tells her to make fruit salad for her husband and open her eyes during sex.

                          So I have to ask myself, why the hades is she on this list?

                          http://content.time.com/time/special...993235,00.html

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by jpholding View Post
                            They'd say the same of you...which leaves us with....?
                            It doesn't matter what they'd say - I wouldn't be in a discussion with them about the Holy Spirit's work in evangelism.

                            This isn't a trivial question; their whole evangelistic scheme is rooted in the alleged witness of the Holy Spirit,
                            Based on the fact that a con man is a 'for really' prophet. When they're so ingrained in Mormonism, I don't think it's as much "talking them out of it" as it is the Holy Spirit working in their lives, and through whoever is talking to them.

                            and until recently they were the fastest growing religion in the world. I honestly think you SHOULD worry about it...
                            I'll leave the worrying to you. As I've stated, I've had no problems dealing with Mormons, and it even seems as though God leads them to me, and through "coincidental" circumstances, reveals the falseness of their religion.

                            even if your solution is to pass the question to someone else.
                            So far, particularly with regards to the Mormons, that hasn't ever been necessary. That seems to be a mission field for me in real life.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Based on the fact that a con man is a 'for really' prophet.
                              Congratulations. You just crossed over into "apologetics".

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by jpholding View Post
                                Congratulations. You just crossed over into "apologetics".
                                have you not seen cow pokes posts in the mormonism section?

                                Comment

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