Buddhist endings?

[Lightknight]

I saw no forum for Buddhism so I have chosen to post here, please reroute if I miss placed it.

Does Buddhism have any concept of all "spirits" eventually reaching Nirvana? It seems that since the concept of one reaching Nirvana and returning to help others aspire to it implies that more and more Buddhas will come into existence until they're all helping one ant find its way.

I understand that the notion of reaching Nirvana to gain release from the cycle is ultimately selfish (hence the idea that the real motivation should be to return and help others), but is there ever a good reason to exit the cycle once and forever?

[Soyeong]

It's been a while and I'd have to look it up, but I think there are two recorded instances of people reaching Nirvana. I am by no means an expert, but my understanding is that a desire to improve yourself that is not at the expense of others is not selfish desire in terms of being the cause of suffering.

[shunyadragon]

I saw no forum for Buddhism so I have chosen to post here, please reroute if I miss placed it.

Does Buddhism have any concept of all "spirits" eventually reaching Nirvana? It seems that since the concept of one reaching Nirvana and returning to help others aspire to it implies that more and more Buddhas will come into existence until they're all helping one ant find its way.

I understand that the notion of reaching Nirvana to gain release from the cycle is ultimately selfish (hence the idea that the real motivation should be to return and help others), but is there ever a good reason to exit the cycle once and forever?

Like Christianity, Buddhism is variable as to what is Nirvana and what is the fate of souls in the afterlife. The question as to who has or will reach Nirvana is also variable. The Bodhisattvas have attained Nirvana, because they have returned to teach others to attain Nirvana. It is considered the ultimate sacrifice for the Bodhisattva to return and suffer again the cycle of birth, life and death. It is no more selfish in Buddhism to attain Nirvana than it is selfish for Christians to want to get to Heaven. It is the Bodhisattva (messiah) that returns to teach the others to reach Nirvana. No, it not usually assumed that everyone will reach Nirvana.

[rossum]

I saw no forum for Buddhism so I have chosen to post here, please reroute if I miss placed it.

Does Buddhism have any concept of all "spirits" eventually reaching Nirvana?

All will eventually attain nirvana. Some will take longer than others, but everyone becomes enlightened eventually. I am not sure what you mean by "spirit", but Buddhism does not have the concept of an immortal soul. One of the effects of enlightenment is that you realise that what you thought of as your soul was not actually your soul afer all.

It seems that since the concept of one reaching Nirvana and returning to help others aspire to it implies that more and more Buddhas will come into existence until they're all helping one ant find its way.

One can imagine a long queue of Bodhisattvas waiting at the gates to nirvana saying: "After you", "No my friend, you go first please"...

I understand that the notion of reaching Nirvana to gain release from the cycle is ultimately selfish (hence the idea that the real motivation should be to return and help others), but is there ever a good reason to exit the cycle once and forever?

One Buddhist sage said "all differences are falsely imagined". The difference between self and other is also falsely imagined so by saving yourself you are also saving others. Some guides up the mountain lead from the front of the group, other guides up the mountain follow at the rear. Either way will get the group to the top.

rossum

[rossum]

No, it not usually assumed that everyone will reach Nirvana.

Here we disagree. All will attain nirvana eventually, though "eventually" may well be many lifetimes away.

rossum

[shunyadragon]

Here we disagree. All will attain nirvana eventually, though "eventually" may well be many lifetimes away.

rossum

I am not sure there is a disagreement except that you consider it 'necessary' that all will achieve Nirvana. I consider it an open question and not 'necessary.' Everyone may or may not attain Nirvana. The necessity of all attaining Nirvana assumes a finite existence and journey of souls, I believe the nature of existence is infinite, where nothing is absolute or ultimately attained.

[Lightknight]

It's been a while and I'd have to look it up, but I think there are two recorded instances of people reaching Nirvana. I am by no means an expert, but my understanding is that a desire to improve yourself that is not at the expense of others is not selfish desire in terms of being the cause of suffering.

That's completely untrue. Some/most sources on this believe that there are as many Buddhas as there are stars. Research Bodhisattvas. You'll be surprised I think.

Like Christianity, Buddhism is variable as to what is Nirvana and what is the fate of souls in the afterlife. The question as to who has or will reach Nirvana is also variable. The Bodhisattvas have attained Nirvana, because they have returned to teach others to attain Nirvana. It is considered the ultimate sacrifice for the Bodhisattva to return and suffer again the cycle of birth, life and death. It is no more selfish in Buddhism to attain Nirvana than it is selfish for Christians to want to get to Heaven. It is the Bodhisattva (messiah) that returns to teach the others to reach Nirvana. No, it not usually assumed that everyone will reach Nirvana.

But it is typically believed that a person who exits the cycle immediately will eventually be somehow called back, correct? This would imply that there is never a true freeing from the cycle if eventual complete nirvana is never reached.

To be a Bodhisattva is to take the action which is most beneficial for the whole. To seek personal freedom from the cycle despite the opportunity to help others must be percieved as selfish to at least some degree. Do you not agree?

All will eventually attain nirvana. Some will take longer than others, but everyone becomes enlightened eventually. I am not sure what you mean by "spirit", but Buddhism does not have the concept of an immortal soul. One of the effects of enlightenment is that you realise that what you thought of as your soul was not actually your soul afer all.

If all will eventually attain nirvana, will that be an end to all things? What of Bodhisattvas? There'll be no need, correct?

One can imagine a long queue of Bodhisattvas waiting at the gates to nirvana saying: "After you", "No my friend, you go first please"...

HAHAHA, now that's funny! I'll have to remember that for some appropriate moment in the future.

One Buddhist sage said "all differences are falsely imagined". The difference between self and other is also falsely imagined so by saving yourself you are also saving others. Some guides up the mountain lead from the front of the group, other guides up the mountain follow at the rear. Either way will get the group to the top.

rossum

Two questions (Well, one comment formed to be responded to and then one question):

1. No matter how I try to imagine it, I am not living a life that someone else is, nor have I lived a life that someone else did. I was never the Prince William that history best knows and yet in infinite pasts I have had a past life of Prince William being my mother or son or brother. But not his life at any point. Otherness is an unfortunate necessity as long as it is accepted that some souls differ from other souls. Some are Bodhisattvas and some are not. You cannot say that All are Bodhisattvas or that all are not. Under the concept of dependent origination, as I understand it from the writings of the current Dalai Lama, I am part of the whole, not the whole.

2. Where do you derive your name, Rossum? It sounds like a familiar character in some forgotten book I once read.

-Gavin

I am not sure there is a disagreement except that you consider it 'necessary' that all will achieve Nirvana. I consider it an open question and not 'necessary.' Everyone may or may not attain Nirvana. The necessity of all attaining Nirvana assumes a finite existence and journey of souls, I believe the nature of existence is infinite, where nothing is absolute or ultimately attained.

The notion of the eternal existence of nature is exactly why I am asking this question. If all do attain Nirvana, what happens?

[shunyadragon]

That's completely untrue. Some/most sources on this believe that there are as many Buddhas as there are stars. Research Bodhisattvas. You'll be surprised I think.

No surprize, there may be as many Bodhisattvas as stars, but stars may have billions if not quadrillions of potential beings.

But it is typically believed that a person who exits the cycle immediately will eventually be somehow called back, correct?

No

This would imply that there is never a true freeing from the cycle if eventual complete nirvana is never reached.

No.

To be a Bodhisattva is to take the action which is most beneficial for the whole. To seek personal freedom from the cycle despite the opportunity to help others must be percieved as selfish to at least some degree. Do you not agree?

No. It cannot be assumed from the Buddhist perspective that every soul that attains Nirvana is a Bodhiattva. Bodhisattvas are chosen and special from the Buddhist perspective, as not every son of God becomes a messiah.

If all will eventually attain nirvana, will that be an end to all things? What of Bodhisattvas? There'll be no need, correct?

It may or may not be true that all attain Nirvans, but given that the nature of existence is infinite, and the number of potential souls is potentially infinite, this is never attained.

Two questions (Well, one comment formed to be responded to and then one question):

1. No matter how I try to imagine it, I am not living a life that someone else is, nor have I lived a life that someone else did. I was never the Prince William that history best knows and yet in infinite pasts I have had a past life of Prince William being my mother or son or brother. But not his life at any point. Otherness is an unfortunate necessity as long as it is accepted that some souls differ from other souls. Some are Bodhisattvas and some are not. You cannot say that All are Bodhisattvas or that all are not. Under the concept of dependent origination, as I understand it from the writings of the current Dalai Lama, I am part of the whole, not the whole.

I believe that nothing is necessary, especially concerning speculation of what is beyond our mortal lives and objective abilities. Speculation from the Buddhist or Christian perspective as to what is the journey beyond our present.

The notion of the eternal existence of nature is exactly why I am asking this question. If all do attain Nirvana, what happens?

No one knows regardless of your perspective, because your human.

[rossum]

2. Where do you derive your name, Rossum? It sounds like a familiar character in some forgotten book I once read.

My name is Martin Ross: M Ross -> Ross M -> rossm -> rossum.

You are probably thinking of R.U.R. by Karel Čapek: Rossum's Universal Robots.

rossum

[Lightknight]

No surprize, there may be as many Bodhisattvas as stars, but stars may have billions if not quadrillions of potential beings.

Ok?

No

No.

Pertaining to which Buddhist tradition are you responding on behalf of? I happen to know for certain that some would answer yes, at least to the former.

No. It cannot be assumed from the Buddhist perspective that every soul that attains Nirvana is a Bodhiattva. Bodhisattvas are chosen and special from the Buddhist perspective, as not every son of God becomes a messiah.

Again, I'm afraid I've quickly run askew with a defender of a different tradition from the ones I am familiar.

It may or may not be true that all attain Nirvans, but given that the nature of existence is infinite, and the number of potential souls is potentially infinite, this is never attained.

Then must it be true by this conclusion that it may NOT be true that all will attain it? As that would defy the eternal cycle.

I believe that nothing is necessary, especially concerning speculation of what is beyond our mortal lives and objective abilities. Speculation from the Buddhist or Christian perspective as to what is the journey beyond our present.

Most traditions believe in enlightenment that results in truths on these subjects.

No one knows regardless of your perspective, because your human.

Can you attempt to speculate, even if futile?

My name is Martin Ross: M Ross -> Ross M -> rossm -> rossum.

You are probably thinking of R.U.R. by Karel Čapek: Rossum's Universal Robots.

rossum

Hah! That's probably it. Thanks.

[shunyadragon]

Ok?

Pertaining to which Buddhist tradition are you responding on behalf of? I happen to know for certain that some would answer yes, at least to the former.

I will cite some sources, but I do not believe your correct. A soul may be chosen to be a Bodizattva, but not all souls that attain Nirvana are chosen.

Again, I'm afraid I've quickly run askew with a defender of a different tradition from the ones I am familiar.

Your views would require some citations. I will follow up on some of my own, but in general the nature of Nirvana and the after life remains unknown.

Then must it be true by this conclusion that it may NOT be true that all will attain it? As that would defy the eternal cycle.

Most traditions believe in enlightenment that results in truths on these subjects.

I disagree, in the earthly realms these truths are not specifically revealed. The Lord Buddha was 'enlightened,' but did not reveal these details.

Can you attempt to speculate, even if futile?

Speculation is indeed possible, but it is still speculation from the human perspective. I believe that Nirvana is the ideal where the Greater Suffering is resolved, and ALL separation and conflicts are resolved. I believe the Lesser Suffering is resolved by realizing the Middle Way, and natural way of suffering that is simply the birth, life and death cycles of the nature of our physical existence.

I also believe in the spiritual journey through many worlds, and that it is futile to define the journey after death from any human perspective.

[Lightknight]

I will cite some sources, but I do not believe your correct. A soul may be chosen to be a Bodizattva, but not all souls that attain Nirvana are chosen.

Your views would require some citations. I will follow up on some of my own, but in general the nature of Nirvana and the after life remains unknown.

Then must it be true by this conclusion that it may NOT be true that all will attain it? As that would defy the eternal cycle.

I disagree, in the earthly realms these truths are not specifically revealed. The Lord Buddha was 'enlightened,' but did not reveal these details.

Speculation is indeed possible, but it is still speculation from the human perspective. I believe that Nirvana is the ideal where the Greater Suffering is resolved, and ALL separation and conflicts are resolved. I believe the Lesser Suffering is resolved by realizing the Middle Way, and natural way of suffering that is simply the birth, life and death cycles of the nature of our physical existence.

I also believe in the spiritual journey through many worlds, and that it is futile to define the journey after death from any human perspective.

Again, what type of Buddhist are you?

I learned these things from my professor, Ulrich Timme Kragh. Graduated from Cambridge, 7 years in Asia and India learning from monks and whatnot, 4 more years at Harvard with a grant to translate ancient Buddhist texts into English. Currently en route to South Korea.

No offense, but I hold his word at a higher standard at the moment then whatever I can personally find on the subject. If you present data that states otherwise I'll look things up (I am good, nontheless at finding information) as it was presented directly from the text.

As for certainty/uncertainty regarding the afterlife, I'm certain that varies widely from group to group.

[shunyadragon]

Again, what type of Buddhist are you?

I learned these things from my professor, Ulrich Timme Kragh. Graduated from Cambridge, 7 years in Asia and India learning from monks and whatnot, 4 more years at Harvard with a grant to translate ancient Buddhist texts into English. Currently en route to South Korea.

No offense, but I hold his word at a higher standard at the moment then whatever I can personally find on the subject. If you present data that states otherwise I'll look things up (I am good, nontheless at finding information) as it was presented directly from the text.

As for certainty/uncertainty regarding the afterlife, I'm certain that varies widely from group to group.

Please cite references that I can read and not a person. I am a Baha'i and not Buddhist I studied Buddhism for many years, and primarilly favored Chinese Buddhism and Zen.

[Lightknight]

Please cite references that I can read and not a person. I am a Baha'i and not Buddhist I studied Buddhism for many years, and primarilly favored Chinese Buddhism and Zen.

Ah, does Baha`i not consider itself to be yet another proper path to Heaven? Do they encourage studying other religions?

Me citing a learned scholar is better than you citing nothing. While I wait for your citation, I'll email him and look it up.

[shunyadragon]

Ah, does Baha`i not consider itself to be yet another proper path to Heaven? Do they encourage studying other religions?

The path to heaven in the Baha'i faith is for the sincere ones through many worlds, which is not determined from any fallible human perspective.

Yes, the Baha'i does encourage the study of all religions, and the use of their scriptures in Baha'i observances.

Me citing a learned scholar is better than you citing nothing. While I wait for your citation, I'll email him and look it up.

The problem with this is not only do the various Buddhist and Christian divisions vastly disagree, but so do scholars.

The following are two contrasting examples of what Buddhists believe concerning the Bodisattva and Nirvana.

http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma6/enlightnirvana.html

In the Theravada tradition, the Buddha was a Bodhisattva numerous times in his past lives and seemed to achieve Enlightenment many times before his Nirvana. The story of the Buddha's life as a Bodhisattva is found in an Early Buddhist text called the ‘Jataka Tales.'

In the Mahayana Tradition, the focus is on ‘Enlightenment,’ not Nirvana. The goal is to become a Bodhisattva, and then a Buddha. The Bodhisattva ends his/her suffering only in Buddhahood, and not before. In the Mahayana, it’s not so much... Do what the Buddha says... But, do what the Buddha did.

© source where applicable

I do not necessarily believe in either of the above, in fact I do not, but they represent examples of the diverse view within Buddhism.