Why does God need to/want to be worshipped?

[ChuckInSuburbia]

I know this is a pretty old thread, and it seems to have degenerated into an argument that has nothing to do with the OP, but I found the topic interesting. I'd like to give the non-believer's perspective, if I may, since the topic relates those of us who do not believe.

Personally, I don't think I would ever raise this question in a discussion about theology, except maybe as a response to someone else's statements. The main reason is that I probably just wouldn't think of it. I don't accept the proposition that there exists any "supreme" being in the first place, let alone a being that demands/expects/deserves worship or adulation. In order to ask this question in a discussion, I would need to make concessions about the existence and nature of a "god" that I am not prepared to make. I might ask something like, "Why do you believe xyz about your god?", or, "Why do you believe that your god demands to be worshiped?" Most people do have compelling reasons, to them at least, to believe what they believe, and I enjoy hearing about them. As a non-believer I also try to stay away from defining other people's beliefs in order to question them, because to do so is to risk attacking a straw man. I prefer to let people define their own beliefs.

Also, I probably wouldn't address the question of the need for worship because, from my perspective, I have the bones of an answer already in my mind. Worship isn't for god, because I regard god as a fictional character. Worship also isn't for the benefit of the individual or society, because, as has been previously noted, deeply religious people and cultures are capable of disgusting atrocities, often while claiming the endorsement of their god(s). Worship is for the benefit of the religion. In the case of christianity, judaism, and islam, the idea that man is inherently flawed and in need of redemption, which can only be obtained by submission to god, is essential to the survival of the religion and the various churches.

Hopefully, I haven't offended anyone; my intent is not to be deliberately disrespectful. I'd love to hear your responses.

[Sparko]

I know this is a pretty old thread, and it seems to have degenerated into an argument that has nothing to do with the OP, but I found the topic interesting. I'd like to give the non-believer's perspective, if I may, since the topic relates those of us who do not believe.

Personally, I don't think I would ever raise this question in a discussion about theology, except maybe as a response to someone else's statements. The main reason is that I probably just wouldn't think of it. I don't accept the proposition that there exists any "supreme" being in the first place, let alone a being that demands/expects/deserves worship or adulation. In order to ask this question in a discussion, I would need to make concessions about the existence and nature of a "god" that I am not prepared to make. I might ask something like, "Why do you believe xyz about your god?", or, "Why do you believe that your god demands to be worshiped?" Most people do have compelling reasons, to them at least, to believe what they believe, and I enjoy hearing about them. As a non-believer I also try to stay away from defining other people's beliefs in order to question them, because to do so is to risk attacking a straw man. I prefer to let people define their own beliefs.

Also, I probably wouldn't address the question of the need for worship because, from my perspective, I have the bones of an answer already in my mind. Worship isn't for god, because I regard god as a fictional character. Worship also isn't for the benefit of the individual or society, because, as has been previously noted, deeply religious people and cultures are capable of disgusting atrocities, often while claiming the endorsement of their god(s). Worship is for the benefit of the religion. In the case of christianity, judaism, and islam, the idea that man is inherently flawed and in need of redemption, which can only be obtained by submission to god, is essential to the survival of the religion and the various churches.

Hopefully, I haven't offended anyone; my intent is not to be deliberately disrespectful. I'd love to hear your responses.

I think first you need to define "worship"

People call a lot of things "worship" - singing songs, bowing down, praying, etc.

[ChuckInSuburbia]

I think first you need to define "worship"

People call a lot of things "worship" - singing songs, bowing down, praying, etc.

I agree that "worship" is a broadly inclusive term, which is why I used it. I would define worship, in my own words, as any activity undertaken to express allegiance or subjugation to a supernatural entity. All the examples you used would fit, as would many art forms, dance, etc. (depending on the composition and tone of the work). Private activities, like silent prayer, would also fit, because the individual is affirming to themselves (and presumably, their chosen deity) their acceptance of the entity.

An artist can be engaged in worship by creating a sculpture of Jesus, but probably not by creating "Piss Christ". Both could be considered "art", but from a religious or spiritual perspective, one is worship and the other could be considered blasphemy (and in extremely poor taste, IMO).

[Sparko]

I agree that "worship" is a broadly inclusive term, which is why I used it. I would define worship, in my own words, as any activity undertaken to express allegiance or subjugation to a supernatural entity. All the examples you used would fit, as would many art forms, dance, etc. (depending on the composition and tone of the work). Private activities, like silent prayer, would also fit, because the individual is affirming to themselves (and presumably, their chosen deity) their acceptance of the entity.

And assuming for the sake of argument that the deity Christians worship (read: swear allegiance to) does exist, how would engaging in such worship be a bad thing in your opinion? Wouldn't swearing allegiance to such a being be a good thing? If he created us, and had a purpose in mind for us, and we rebelled against him, and yet he gave us a way to be forgiven and live forever with him, wouldn't such a being be a good deity and deserving our love and allegiance?

[ChuckInSuburbia]

And assuming for the sake of argument that the deity Christians worship (read: swear allegiance to) does exist, how would engaging in such worship be a bad thing in your opinion? Wouldn't swearing allegiance to such a being be a good thing? If he created us, and had a purpose in mind for us, and we rebelled against him, and yet he gave us a way to be forgiven and live forever with him, wouldn't such a being be a good deity and deserving our love and allegiance?

That's a lot of "if's", which I'm not prepared to concede, as I said earlier.

I'd say that the "positivity value", for lack of a better term, would have to be assessed for each individual act of worship. There is nothing inherently good or bad about acts of worship; we would need to look at the consequences for each action.

In my mind, prayer is an activity with a null value, most of the time, and can be positive if used to express positive feelings or intent to other people, but can also be negative for similar reasons.

Creating a worshipful piece of art or music would almost definitely be a positive thing, as it contributes to the richness of our culture, even if some people do not care for the particular art in question.

Worship through violence, I would categorize as universally "bad", although there are quite a few in this world who would disagree.

However, there is a lot of baggage that comes along with trying to assess the moral value of worship. The world's religions are, almost without exception, mutually exclusive, which means that the majority of people on Earth are engaged in worship of a non-existent being, or in the wrong type of worship of their deity. This constitutes a colossal waste of time, energy, and money, for everyone who doesn't worship the "right" deity (if one exists) in the "right" way. I tend to view this situation as a negative.

In cases of worship of a non-entity, there is often a church or organization which provides guidance and community to many like-minded worshipers, which are made up of other human beings. In these situations, what you effectively have are many people swearing allegiance to a church hierarchy which stands in for the non-existent deity. I also tend to view this as a negative.

[Soyeong]

That's a lot of "if's", which I'm not prepared to concede, as I said earlier.

If you're trying to understand how people see the relationship that worship has with their belief in God, then it doesn't make much sense not to concede the existence of God for the sake of argument.

In my mind, prayer is an activity with a null value, most of the time, and can be positive if used to express positive feelings or intent to other people, but can also be negative for similar reasons.

If God doesn't exist, then you'd be right for the most part, but that's just as big of an "if" going in the opposite direction, which we have no reason to accept. If you want to understand why people do something, then you need to be willing to consider their position on their terms.

[ChuckInSuburbia]

If you're trying to understand how people see the relationship that worship has with their belief in God, then it doesn't make much sense not to concede the existence of God for the sake of argument.

For what it's worth, I agree. If I were trying to understand how people see the relationship that worship has with their belief in God, there are certain propositions which I should be prepared to accept, simply for the sake of continuing the conversation.

So, for the sake of argument, let us assume that the god of Abraham is, in fact, the one true god. From god's perspective, it is perfectly reasonable to expect absolute subservience from his creations. He made us, therefore he owns us, and he can do anything he likes with us, because he is powerful and we are not.

But, from man's perspective, this god is only deserving of worship in the same way that a mafia boss is deserving of protection money. We must worship him or he will punish us. Personally, I don't regard this type of relationship as praise-worthy; I think I am justified in expecting a bit more from an all-powerful being.

[Sparko]

That's a lot of "if's", which I'm not prepared to concede, as I said earlier.

I'd say that the "positivity value", for lack of a better term, would have to be assessed for each individual act of worship. There is nothing inherently good or bad about acts of worship; we would need to look at the consequences for each action.

In my mind, prayer is an activity with a null value, most of the time, and can be positive if used to express positive feelings or intent to other people, but can also be negative for similar reasons.

Creating a worshipful piece of art or music would almost definitely be a positive thing, as it contributes to the richness of our culture, even if some people do not care for the particular art in question.

Worship through violence, I would categorize as universally "bad", although there are quite a few in this world who would disagree.

However, there is a lot of baggage that comes along with trying to assess the moral value of worship. The world's religions are, almost without exception, mutually exclusive, which means that the majority of people on Earth are engaged in worship of a non-existent being, or in the wrong type of worship of their deity. This constitutes a colossal waste of time, energy, and money, for everyone who doesn't worship the "right" deity (if one exists) in the "right" way. I tend to view this situation as a negative.

In cases of worship of a non-entity, there is often a church or organization which provides guidance and community to many like-minded worshipers, which are made up of other human beings. In these situations, what you effectively have are many people swearing allegiance to a church hierarchy which stands in for the non-existent deity. I also tend to view this as a negative.

There is only one "if" - If the Christian God exists. If he does everything else just follows. You are already assuming a big "if" - if he doesn't exist, then going on to list why all the "worship" is useless.

[Soyeong]

So, for the sake of argument, let us assume that the god of Abraham is, in fact, the one true god. From god's perspective, it is perfectly reasonable to expect absolute subservience from his creations. He made us, therefore he owns us, and he can do anything he likes with us, because he is powerful and we are not.

But, from man's perspective, this god is only deserving of worship in the same way that a mafia boss is deserving of protection money. We must worship him or he will punish us. Personally, I don't regard this type of relationship as praise-worthy; I think I am justified in expecting a bit more from an all-powerful being.

God is worthy of praise by virtue of Him being good, holy, just, faithful, loving, merciful, wise, and unchanging, and because of what He has done for us. We praise God because we ought to praise Him; not because He has power over us.

[lao tzu]

God is worthy of praise by virtue of Him being good, holy, just, faithful, loving, merciful, wise, and unchanging, and because of what He has done for us. We praise God because we ought to praise Him; not because He has power over us.

Keeping with the theme of spelling things out, how do you go about praising your god?

[lao tzu]

Also, tofu.

[lao tzu]

There is only one "if" - If the Christian God exists. If he does everything else just follows. You are already assuming a big "if" - if he doesn't exist, then going on to list why all the "worship" is useless.

Nah, that last is a pretty minuscule if. There's a lot of gods out there, spanning a lot of millennia. The Christian god has only been about for a couple of them, and even during that time, never has managed to muster up a majority of human belief.

My god, on the other hand, is too illustrious to pay much notice anything so ephemeral as humanity. ;)

As ever, Jesse

[Soyeong]

Keeping with the theme of spelling things out, how do you go about praising your god?

I meant to say "worship" instead of "praise" because we worship by giving praise, honor, glory, adoration, and time to something. We tend to focus our lives on what is most important to us and worship it by doing any number of things that express its great importance to our lives.

[Nathan Poe]

I agree that "worship" is a broadly inclusive term, which is why I used it. I would define worship, in my own words, as any activity undertaken to express allegiance or subjugation to a supernatural entity.

I like your definition, but does the entity being worshiped have to be supernatural?

[Nathan Poe]

And assuming for the sake of argument that the deity Christians worship (read: swear allegiance to) does exist, how would engaging in such worship be a bad thing in your opinion? Wouldn't swearing allegiance to such a being be a good thing? If he created us, and had a purpose in mind for us, and we rebelled against him, and yet he gave us a way to be forgiven and live forever with him, wouldn't such a being be a good deity and deserving our love and allegiance?

I don't see it as an issue of being such a good or a bad thing, but the question being, why would such a being want, let alone demand, worship?

On a tangential note, if such a good being demands worship lest He rescind His offer, how good is He really? Does He deserve worship in the same sense that a tax collector deserves money?