Question for JW

[spitndirt]

It is my understanding that JW's believe they will be raised to life and be like pre-fallen Adam. Thing is, Adam was created mortal and subject to death. It is written that believers will put on immortality never again to be subject to death.

How would a JW go about reconciling this apparent contradiction?

[Sparko]

Adam was made mortal after he ate of the fruit. I think if he had obeyed then he would have lived forever and been immortal.

[spitndirt]

Adam was made mortal after he ate of the fruit. I think if he had obeyed then he would have lived forever and been immortal.

Hmmm....I would say that Adam was created mortal and subject to death considering that there existed in Eden "the tree + the command" - this, along with the fact that he actually died. Had Adam been created immortal there becomes no purpose for "the tree + the command" and he could not have died under any circumstance.

Also, either one is mortal or he is immortal. There is no in-between.

Later Sparko

[Sparko]

if one is either mortal or immortal, then how do you

1. explain Jesus who was immortal, became mortal, then immortal again?

2. explain how you expect to become immortal one day if you are mortal now?

[spitndirt]

if one is either mortal or immortal, then how do you

1. explain Jesus who was immortal, became mortal, then immortal again?

Well, not to rehash an old debate....but I would say that Jesus was born mortal and was raised immortal. Jesus was a man. Now, the Deity that dwelt in Jesus bodily is immortal and has never at any time put on mortality. He (God) dwelt bodily IN a mortal (Jesus)....but never was (became) mortal Himself.

That said....even if it were as you say Jesus is not mortal while He is immortal and immortal while He is mortal. That's because one cannot be both at the same time.

2. explain how you expect to become immortal one day if you are mortal now?

Ummm...by the power of God at my resurrection? Unless, of course, the scriptures are untrue that say believers will put on immortality at Christ's coming.

It is one thing for a mortal to be translated....quite another for an immortal. I don't see the scriptural support for the latter. In other words, there now exists immortal God and an immortal man who is the risen Christ, the firstborn from among the dead.

[Sparko]

Well, not to rehash an old debate....but I would say that Jesus was born mortal and was raised immortal. Jesus was a man. Now, the Deity that dwelt in Jesus bodily is immortal and has never at any time put on mortality. He (God) dwelt bodily IN a mortal (Jesus)....but never was (became) mortal Himself.

That said....even if it were as you say Jesus is not mortal while He is immortal and immortal while He is mortal. That's because one cannot be both at the same time.



Ummm...by the power of God at my resurrection? Unless, of course, the scriptures are untrue that say believers will put on immortality at Christ's coming.

It is one thing for a mortal to be translated....quite another for an immortal. I don't see the scriptural support for the latter. In other words, there now exists immortal God and an immortal man who is the risen Christ, the firstborn from among the dead.

well since you dont believe Jesus is God and preexistant I guess you dont find any biblical support for it. but I do.

but you said someone who is immortal could not become mortal as if it were set in stone. Now agreed if he eventually died, then Adam was not de fact immortal, but I would argue that he was potentially Immortal, and that he had an unfallen body that would not have aged or died if he did not eat from the fruit. When he did eat from the fruit, his nature was changed. It became unglorified and subject to death.

Remember the penalty for eating the fruit was death. If Adam was going to die anyway without eating the fruit, then the penalty did not mean anything. It implies that if he did not eat the fruit he would not die.

[spitndirt]

well since you dont believe Jesus is God and preexistant I guess you dont find any biblical support for it. but I do.

Yes Sparko, we've been down the trinity road before. I understand where you are coming from.

but you said someone who is immortal could not become mortal as if it were set in stone.

Personally, I don't see any direct biblical evidence for such a thing.

Now agreed if he eventually died, then Adam was not de fact immortal,

Exactly, now we're getting somewhere. Though you're not a JW I am happy to speak with you about these things. In my mind this makes Adam created mortal. Mortal does not necessarily mean going to die.....just that Adam was subject to death. Subject to death and dying are two different things.

but I would argue that he was potentially Immortal,

Yes....potentially. And through the Word of God this potential still remains. I would also say that death for Adam was only a potential in the beginning. This potential was realized when He ate of the fruit.

and that he had an unfallen body that would not have aged or died if he did not eat from the fruit.

Hmmmm.....I would argue that Adam would have been *translated* into an immortal state just as God has always intended for man. In my view what *we* as believers will become at Christ's coming is what God had in mind all along. In other words, there is no "plan B" that is in effect.

When he did eat from the fruit, his nature was changed. It became unglorified and subject to death.

Again, I would say that Adam was created subject to death....but existing in life until he ate the bad apple. In fact, I would say that *the fruit along with the command not to eat lest he die* IS the very subjection to death that we are speaking of.

Remember the penalty for eating the fruit was death.

Yes....the very thing he was subject to even while he was existing in life. An analogy would be: We are subject to the jurisdiction of the State to suffer any penalties for any crimes that we may commit. This is so even if for law abiding citizens. Our lawfulness doesn't mean we are not subject to the State's jurisdiction....just that we are free from any penalties for breaking the law. Get it?

If Adam was going to die anyway without eating the fruit, then the penalty did not mean anything. It implies that if he did not eat the fruit he would not die.

Again, think about the "translation into immortality" possibility.

Later Sparko....

O.....I would still be curious what JW's would think about being raised to be like prefallen Adam seeing that he was mortal and subject to death. Who really wants to retain this flesh and blood body made essentially of dust? Then there's the issue of flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God. Are JW's found to be preaching a kingdom that they will not be allowed to enter? ....seeing as how they will apparently be raised with flesh and blood just like prefallen Adam. Hmmmm....

K....done

[Sparko]

Yes Sparko, we've been down the trinity road before. I understand where you are coming from.



Personally, I don't see any direct biblical evidence for such a thing.



Exactly, now we're getting somewhere. Though you're not a JW I am happy to speak with you about these things. In my mind this makes Adam created mortal. Mortal does not necessarily mean going to die.....just that Adam was subject to death. Subject to death and dying are two different things.

agreed. but then even when we are made immortal it is still POSSIBLE for God to destroy us if he wished. Immortal does not mean God can't do what he wants. He is God after all.



Y

es....potentially. And through the Word of God this potential still remains. I would also say that death for Adam was only a potential in the beginning. This potential was realized when He ate of the fruit.



Hmmmm.....I would argue that Adam would have been *translated* into an immortal state just as God has always intended for man. In my view what *we* as believers will become at Christ's coming is what God had in mind all along. In other words, there is no "plan B" that is in effect.

and here is where we disagree. I see Adam as being made perfect in the beginning, and made in God's image, yada, yada. Which means God made him in the everlasting state (I will use everlasting instead of immortal) - and he got "translated" into a fallable human (mortal, sinful state) when he ate from the fruit. He died.

the point of Jesus coming back and dying for us is to give us a chance to achieve that eternal state again one day, with one difference, we are subjecting our selves willingly to God and he will make it so we won't ever sin again.

Again, I would say that Adam was created subject to death....but existing in life until he ate the bad apple. In fact, I would say that *the fruit along with the command not to eat lest he die* IS the very subjection to death that we are speaking of.

kinda sounds like the same thing I am saying.

but I am starting from perfection and him falling to imperfection.

Yes....the very thing he was subject to even while he was existing in life. An analogy would be: We are subject to the jurisdiction of the State to suffer any penalties for any crimes that we may commit. This is so even if for law abiding citizens. Our lawfulness doesn't mean we are not subject to the State's jurisdiction....just that we are free from any penalties for breaking the law. Get it?

again sounds like we are saying the same thing. The main difference is that Adam, in my opinion, started out in the eternal state and only changed into the mortal state when he ate from the fruit.

We really don't even know how long Adam lived in the garden before the fall. It sounds like it was almost immediately that he fell, but it could have been a very long time. He named all the animals for instance. For all we know Adam and Eve could have lived millions of years in the garden before the fall (I rather think it was sooner, but it is possible) The bible records Adam as living 900 some years, but that could be counting from the time he started aging after the fall.

O.....I would still be curious what JW's would think about being raised to be like prefallen Adam seeing that he was mortal and subject to death. Who really wants to retain this flesh and blood body made essentially of dust? Then there's the issue of flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God. Are JW's found to be preaching a kingdom that they will not be allowed to enter? ....seeing as how they will apparently be raised with flesh and blood just like prefallen Adam. Hmmmm....

K....done

Well I think we will have a body of flesh in the glorified state too. Jesus did. But let's wait and see what they have to say.