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The Final Stage of Creation

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  • The Final Stage of Creation

    I can accept God made the best possible universe. For the sake of argument, I'll concede that a hostile universe is the best universe to get to the finally stage.

    I can't accept that he didn't know that sin being actualized would lead to the better, most important part, and thus that actualization was necessary for the world to properly reach its final stage. What other scenario would pave the way to a world with no natural or moral evil?

  • #2
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    I can accept God made the best possible universe. For the sake of argument, I'll concede that a hostile universe is the best universe to get to the finally stage.

    I can't accept that he didn't know that sin being actualized would lead to the better, most important part, and thus that actualization was necessary for the world to properly reach its final stage. What other scenario would pave the way to a world with no natural or moral evil?
    I am not sure that I understand your objection. What I do know is unless there is good which can be negated there can be no evil. And also infinite good cannot be negated by evil.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      I am not sure that I understand your objection. What I do know is unless there is good which can be negated there can be no evil. And also infinite good cannot be negated by evil.
      I think my objection is clear enough. Humankind had to usher in the set of circumstances that leads to the better world. Without moral evil, the final stage that's devoid of evil cannot come. What other scenario would lead to a world without evil?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by whag View Post
        I think my objection is clear enough. Humankind had to usher in the set of circumstances that leads to the better world. Without moral evil, the final stage that's devoid of evil cannot come. What other scenario would lead to a world without evil?
        The new heaven and earth as planned.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by whag View Post
          I can accept God made the best possible universe. For the sake of argument, I'll concede that a hostile universe is the best universe to get to the finally stage.

          I can't accept that he didn't know that sin being actualized would lead to the better, most important part, and thus that actualization was necessary for the world to properly reach its final stage. What other scenario would pave the way to a world with no natural or moral evil?
          I accept that this is the best possible universe for the purpose God has for it. What the totality of that purpose is I am not sure. Some of it is revealed in scripture but not all. I believe that you are correct in thinking that God knew exactly what would happen and that it serves the purpose of what you call the final stage.
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by whag View Post
            I can accept God made the best possible universe. For the sake of argument, I'll concede that a hostile universe is the best universe to get to the finally stage.
            I believe God made our physical existence simply as it is, and a reflection of God's nature and not the best, or a hostile best universe to get anywhere.

            I can't accept that he didn't know that sin being actualized would lead to the better, most important part, and thus that actualization was necessary for the world to properly reach its final stage. What other scenario would pave the way to a world with no natural or moral evil?
            I can't. Any of the many diverse apocalyptic mythical versions of a final stage is contrary to anything remotely reasonable and logical about what we know about our physical existence. These beliefs came from a world that expected an apocalyptic end times, that of course, never happened.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              The new heaven and earth as planned.
              That plan needed an initiating act of sin to make that world possible. God seems dependent on that act to get the world he wants.

              It makes more sense to me that God created human beings from the apparatus of animals in order to force the malfeasance early. There might be more significance to the Bible's description of sin entering right away.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                I accept that this is the best possible universe for the purpose God has for it. What the totality of that purpose is I am not sure. Some of it is revealed in scripture but not all. I believe that you are correct in thinking that God knew exactly what would happen and that it serves the purpose of what you call the final stage.
                In that case, it seems like God wanted rebellion to occur. After all, there was no other choice or alternative scenario to bring about the best world.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by whag View Post
                  That plan needed an initiating act of sin to make that world possible. God seems dependent on that act to get the world he wants.

                  It makes more sense to me that God created human beings from the apparatus of animals in order to force the malfeasance early. There might be more significance to the Bible's description of sin entering right away.
                  The final creation is a world without evil. Well, I guest you will have to wait for the judgment to be convinced that is the case.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    The final creation is a world without evil. Well, I guest you will have to wait for the judgment to be convinced that is the case.
                    You still don't understand the objection and respond with religious pap instead.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by whag View Post
                      You still don't understand the objection and respond with religious pap instead.
                      I guess I did not understand your question or objection. It is my understanding and belief that there can be no evil wiithout good. And evil was created for this creation. And will be done away in this creation's replacement.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        I guess I did not understand your question or objection. It is my understanding and belief that there can be no evil wiithout good. And evil was created for this creation. And will be done away in this creation's replacement.
                        That's exactly my point. So why do we lament the appearance of evil if it's the necessary precondition of an eventual perfect world?

                        Going back to my original point, it seems that God forced the appearance of evil by making humanity the way he did. Sin appeared early, which makes it look like God planned it that way.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by whag View Post
                          That's exactly my point. So why do we lament the appearance of evil if it's the necessary precondition of an eventual perfect world?
                          Evil is still evil even if it has an ultimately positive purpose.
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                            Evil is still evil even if it has an ultimately positive purpose.
                            I understand that. But why does God lament (and even seem surprised by) the expression of imperfection? That imperfection was already built into the teleology of human beings and was bound to unfold very early. Genesis describes it happening in the first generation. Science acknowledges human beings warred with each other very early and frequently. All this should have been expected by the creator who created them.

                            No other scenario other than what actually happened was possible. Would you agree?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by whag View Post
                              No other scenario other than what actually happened was possible. Would you agree?
                              I do not agree. God could have done things differently if it had been His purpose.

                              I did not ignore the first part of your post, but an answer is difficult. Keep in mind that this is a revelation of God to those of us who can not begin to understand Him in any way apart from what He reveals.
                              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                              Comment

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