Atheism / Christianity outside the US

[element771]

Hi,

I was surfing the net as I usually do and came across a thread about atheism in Sweden.

The poster was radically anti-Christian and claimed that he was glad that everyone in Sweden was atheist. He then went on to imply that this meant that the Swedish people were more intelligent than people in the US because of their ability to drop the "superstitions of the past."

A bunch more people from other countries (Canada, Germany, England to name a few) jumped on the bandwagon and implied that the US was a backwards country because it was the last country in the world that still held on to ignorant religious beliefs.

I guess my topic is two fold.....

For folks outside the US:

Is atheism really this prominent a view as is reported or is this just an effort to swell their numbers?

Also as a Christian, are you looked down upon?

For folks inside the US:

Why do you think that there are so many countries out there that are atheistic?

Does it make you doubt your faith because there are so many in the world that either don't care about religion or view it as merely superstitious belief?

If the presence of God is really as obvious as we think it is, why do they not see it?

Thanks for your input.

[Soyeong]

I am inside the US and I think it is a Christian nation in name only, but it is far from the last nation that has large populations of people who hold on to religious beliefs. I think the main reason for the rise of atheism of late is because of the false dichotomy between religion and science, and partially in part to YEC's enforcing it. If my faith was based upon the argument that X number of people can't be wrong, then I think I might have cause for doubt, but it isn't, so I don't. I think our prosperity blinds us to our need for God.

[Mark F]

A bunch more people from other countries (Canada, Germany, England to name a few) jumped on the bandwagon and implied that the US was a backwards country because it was the last country in the world that still held on to ignorant religious beliefs.

Well, you can be backwards in a good way and in a bad way. I think America is a little bit of both.

Generally, it looks like the policies of G.W. Bush has inspired a lot of hostility towards evangelical Christianity around the world ("Bush derangement syndrome").

For folks outside the US:

Is atheism really this prominent a view as is reported or is this just an effort to swell their numbers?

The guy's claim "all Swedes are atheists" was an optimistic exaggeration, as expected. One Swedish blog cites a study which states that over 50% of Swedes believe in "some kind of god", while 15% believe in the Biblical God. In my country, Finland, the numbers are somewhat higher. I've heard that in Germany, the number of "born again Christians" is maybe around 3%, but belief in God is much higher according to a recent poll, about 50%. I'd guess Great Britain and the Netherlands are about in the same ballpark. In the catholic countries of the south, the Catholic church seems to have a small but solid base of active churchgoers. I don't have numbers for East Europe and Russia, but there are active Christians there too.

What many people still don't realize is that nowadays, most "born again Christians" live in third world countries (Africa, South America, Far East). It's not the "middle class white Americans' religion".

Also as a Christian, are you looked down upon?

No, but it might be that I don't declare my faith that often (maybe not as often as I should). When I do, I try to do it tactfully, and usually receive a tactful response. Pretty often, the attitude seems to be "believe whatever you want, but don't talk about sin, especially if it has to do with personal lifestyle choices".

There are some "rabid atheists" here too - you know the kind who mention crusades and inquisition as if they were some historical taboos frantically denied by "the church", and think they've just demolished the moral basis of Christianity - but they are a small minority. Most young people generally find Christianity old-fashioned and somewhat intolerant but leave it at that. The media seems to favor a quiet, tolerant, humane form Christianity, like the liberal media in the U.S.

[element771]

Well, you can be backwards in a good way and in a bad way. I think America is a little bit of both.

Generally, it looks like the policies of G.W. Bush has inspired a lot of hostility towards evangelical Christianity around the world ("Bush derangement syndrome").

I can see that. But it should also be known that he is not very popular here in the states either.

Most young people generally find Christianity old-fashioned and somewhat intolerant but leave it at that.

Do you find this troubling?

I always wondered how could God's presence not be felt by so many people. This has troubled me at times because I wonder if I am just deluding myself.

[Adrift]

When I lived in Germany I found that many of the locals I came into contact with, who I had the opportunity to discuss spirituality with, had a strong desire for spirituality, but it seemed to me that the education system strongly discouraged spiritual... well.. discussion (or exploration I guess you could say). I remember having a discussion with the German wife of a friend of mine who was adamantly non-theistic mostly due to educational upbringing, but when I started touching on issues of love, and forgiveness, and innocence... things this world doesn't really offer; her whole demeanor changed dramatically. She went from accusative to curious. I found that was true with a lot of folks I discussed these things with.
It also seems to me that the majority of responsibility lies on the ancient religious institutions that already exist. For the most part, as far as I could see, these institutions are dead or dying in Germany. You walk into the gorgeous ancient cathedrals and you find mostly only the very old. Young people want nothing to do with them, and when they think of Christianity they think of these great, cold, crumbling buildings filled with the walking dead. No wonder they have no desire for it.

The only places I found excitement for God was in places where evangelical revival was going on...

[lilpixieofterror]

Hi,

I was surfing the net as I usually do and came across a thread about atheism in Sweden.

The poster was radically anti-Christian and claimed that he was glad that everyone in Sweden was atheist. He then went on to imply that this meant that the Swedish people were more intelligent than people in the US because of their ability to drop the "superstitions of the past."

Sounds like poisoning the well to me.

A bunch more people from other countries (Canada, Germany, England to name a few) jumped on the bandwagon and implied that the US was a backwards country because it was the last country in the world that still held on to ignorant religious beliefs.

Want to have some class A entertainment just reverse it on them and say that they still hold onto ignorant atheist beliefs and therefore they are backwards. Ask them who the world superpower is... is it European countries or the US? What country is the most technological advanced in the world? European countries or the US? You can also ask them why they are using US technology (Windows, IBM, etc) to rant about how ignorant the US really is. These are the typical type of fundy atheist you ran into. They think they are so intelligent and 'enlightened' when they are just as bigoted as they claim Christians are. It's really kind of sad and funny at the same time. Try asking a few of these things and you'll see the true hate come bubbling out.

For folks inside the US:

Why do you think that there are so many countries out there that are atheistic?

I think adrift hit it pretty accurately.

Does it make you doubt your faith because there are so many in the world that either don't care about religion or view it as merely superstitious belief?

Argument by numbers is a poor argument at best. Does that mean Christianity was true 1,000 years ago but not today? No.... Christianity is true or false based upon it's merits and not upon rather or not 2 billion or 2 people believe and follow it. For those who think Christianity is 'superstitious' I like to see their definition of 'superstitious' and why they believe that way.

If the presence of God is really as obvious as we think it is, why do they not see it?

People will see what they want despite what evidence says. Look how many people battled with the view that the sun is the center of the solar system even though the evidence for it was oblivious in the time of Gallello.

Bottom line, you'll find that many of these people who claim to think logically really are not being at all that logical, they are letting their emotions guide them.

Thanks for your input

Anytime.

[guacamole]

IMO, there is a pretty constant and high number of stupid people in the world. For better or for worse, stupid people (educated or not) tend to follow the herd. In places where Christianity is the dominant paradigm, then we will have more stupid people following Christianity. In places where it is not, the the stupid people will stampede after whatever the most other people tell them is right/smartest/most fashionale/etc. Why are so many people turning to atheism in the "post-Christian" world-- that's what stupid people do after a while. When it becomes popular and chic, like lemming running over a cliff, the stupid will follow.

Caveat 1:

I am not asserting that whatever stupid people do is wrong. Often stupid people do the right thing accidently.

Caveat 2:

I can fully allow that it is statistically probable that I am one of the stupid people.

Caveat 3:

I don't aver that we let the stupid wend their merry path to hell. However, it is refreshing to see increasing numbers of unsophisticated fools follow other paths.

Caveat 4:

"Not many who are wise are chosen."

fwiw,
guaca.

[MooseOnTheLoose]

Well, what has ever come out of Sweden apart from ABBA?

By England I presume you mean the United Kingdom?

Church attendances might have dwindled, but everyone has switched over to another type of spiritualism. 25% of the British population now believes in some sort of psychic, spiritualist, New Age creed - more than any other single religious denomination (source- Richard Dawkins, "Enemies of Reason".

I guess in Scandanavia, it's too cold to go to Church.

And as for the most technologically advanced country in the world - I though that was Japan. (The US still uses a primitive TV system which has no teletext.)

[Chaotic Void]

Hi,
Is atheism really this prominent a view as is reported or is this just an effort to swell their numbers?

From Experience, I can say that it's highly embellished for multiple reasons...

-In Canada, we're "Multicultural", not "Atheistic". Anyone who says otherwise should be subject to Mankys' Farting Bazooka.
-A lot of the alleged Atheists consider themselves "Not Religious" simply because it hampers their lifestyle or because no worldviews ring true to them. I've heard of Atheists using these "Not Religious" people to boost their numbers.

Also as a Christian, are you looked down upon?

There's the odd nutcase [I am, of course, referring to this one girl in my ELA class I nominated for a Screwball not too long ago] but other than that, people are respectful of my worldview, and I am respectful of theirs.
{And I don't think they dare try to tangle with me, either... especially since I ripped above screwball to shreds in the Debate Session. }

[Mark F]

"Most young people generally find Christianity old-fashioned and somewhat intolerant but leave it at that."

Do you find this troubling?

I find it mostly frustrating - their prejudice ("But you hate gays! And subjugate women!") prevents them from seeing the deeper meaning of Christianity. I believe God can change their attitude though, if we persist and pray hard enough.

I always wondered how could God's presence not be felt by so many people. This has troubled me at times because I wonder if I am just deluding myself.

1. Christians are by nature as selfish as any other person. Few are sanctified enough to convey a feeling of God's presence to non-Christians.

2. Many unbelievers may react negatively to Christians because they sense, quite rightly, that the God we worship demands a change in their lives they're not willing to make.