May 2008 Screwballs

[MaxVel]

I see he hasn't defined homophobia

Homophobia = Fear of things that look alike. ... ?

[xtreem5150ahm]

Pat Condel says, quite rightly, that there are some gosples which show jesus as gay (the ones in the bible) and some which show him as married (the ones the churhc burned and left out of the bible) Hence this is open to dispute.

I haven't kept up on the ol' "Jesus is gay" cannard for a few years now, but the question i have is, if the church burned these documents, where are the boneheads getting their information from?

I mean, it's like me saying some kid i've never met had his homework eat'n by some other kid that never met me or the first kid.... and that means we've got irrefutable evidence that the homework was done (not only done, but with a perfect score).

And, all the while, they look at Christians as the irrational ones.

[historic salve]

The hidden sin of the Pharisees:

I subscribe to the theory that Pericope Adulterae only referred to that one particular sin, since the Pharisees themselves had slept with the woman but only wanted to condemn her and not themselves.

[TolkienFan]

Who said that? And where?

[historic salve]

Who said that? And where?

A person named Crimson Hellkite, from here. Whenever I don't credit or link a screwball, it means it comes from somewhere else.

[Alucard]

Make sure they know he's Christian.

[DoomRater]

So Gom Jabbar insists that observing something changes it... in a discussion about time machines.

http://www.sheezyart.com/forum/topic/113829/6/#C117403

[Raphael]

Nomination for DJ again.

First he complains that Nick did a detailed critical review (already nominated this month)

Then he makes this comment:

Thank you Nick for the review. I amazes me that someone who is only as knowledable as you can think you have actually enaged my ideas. It feels to me as if a high schoooler thinks he has done justice to them.

http://deeperwaters.wordpress.com/20...e/#comment-580

[TolkienFan]

Originally posted by Alucard

Make sure they know he's Christian.

Yikes!

[Mr Minder]

I nominate this website:

http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/romanempire.html

Why? Because he uses the old 'Mithraism-and-Christianity' similarity game. He doesn't say that Christianity is a copycat of Mithraism, but some of the comments there deserve Screwie nominations:

Mithra, legend says, was incarnated into human form (as prophesized by Zarathustra) in 272 bc. He was born of a virgin, who was called the Mother of God. Mithra's birthday was celebrated December 25 and he was called "the light of the world". After teaching for 36 years, he ascended into heaven in 208 bc.

There were many similarities with Christianity: Mithraists believed in heaven and hell, judgement and resurrection. They had baptism and communion of bread and wine. They believed in service to God and others.

There are more low-value gems, but I just want to nominate a few another comments, these on Christianity:

As a young man, he [Jesus] became very religious, and joined a group of ascetic Jews led by a charismatic leader named John the Baptist. When John was beheaded by local authorities for "rabble-rousing", many began looking to Jesus for leadership.

As time went by, of course, it was clear that he [Jesus] wouldn't be coming back in their [the believers] lifetimes. The less messianic, more religious aspects of his teaching began to be emphasized, and his notion of the kingdom of God as within us, or at least as our heavenly reward, replaced the hoped-for Jewish state.

The gospel of John, for example, is very different from the others, and refers to Jesus as the word, or Logos -- a common Greek idea. Revelations, also attributed to John, but very different in style and content, has all the complex imagery of gnostic and Mithraist end-of-the-world stories, popular among the Jews at this time. It includes the idea of an eventual resurrection of the body -- a concept that Jesus of the gospels did not promote, and which most Christians today do not believe in.

The article includes stuff that JPH has already answered, as well as some downright stupid comments (most Christians of today do not believe in an eventual bodily resurrection??). Strange, since this is supposedly written by some Dr. C. George Boeree... a doctor in, what?

[TolkienFan]

Originally posted by MikO von Mirtos

Strange, since this is supposedly written by some Dr. C. George Boeree... a doctor in, what?

Probably a pseudonym for Billy Wheaton.

[jpholding]

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspo...-claim-to.html

DJ wrote the entry but it is Ed Dumbuttski who wins the award:

Ed Babinski sent me a list of books and said, "Simply reading book titles and descriptions is an education in itself, and a reminder that philosophy and religion still appear to raise more questions than answers."

It speaks for Edski's lack of intellectual horsepower that book titles and descriptions are enough to give him an "education".

[TolkienFan]

[TolkienFan]

I don’t know if this will be accepted since it was from last month, but there is this from Amnouy (the first paragraph is regarding the criteria presented by Glenn Miller here [http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html]):

The above is really just a rationalization for not facing up to the influences that formed the Christian religion. Christianity was put together by blending Hellenistic Judaism with the Greek mystery religions. To consider the history of Israel at the time of Jesus without examining the extensive history and religious customs of Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece and Italy etc, that is the entire Hellenistic world, would be like writing about the American Revolutionary War and only giving a passing reference to the British. It could be done but it would be lop-sided and misleading. And yet it is how Christian fundamentalists use the bible and a few documents like the used and abused Josephus and Tacitus to promote Christianity’s supernatural beliefs, without reference to the other factors that formed it.

Even leaving aside the all pervasive Hellenistic culture that profoundly influenced the entire Roman Empire and even ignoring the clear similarities between the Greek Mystery Religions and Christianity the effect of the mystery religions on Christianity can be seen in the defensive rationalizations by the early Christian leaders themselves.

Some pagans scorned the Christians for borrowing their beliefs from the Greeks. Tertullian wrote in defence, “... we are laughed at for proclaiming that God will judge, for just so the Greek poets and philosophers set up a tribunal in the world below.” Further on in his book Tertullian mentioned the river Pyriphlegethon, the flaming river of the underworld mentioned in the writings of Plato. Tertullian believed that such river existed. He believed that Plato was inspired by God. Tertullian acknowledged the striking similarities between the Gentile beliefs about life after death and the corresponding beliefs mentioned in the New Testament. Twice Tertullian referred to Christianity as “our mysteries.

In the following passage, Justin Martyr tries to prove that the concepts of the Jesus story did not originate with Hellenistic myths about god-men but in doing so inadvertently proves that the mystery religions were earlier than Christianity: "... those counterfeits which he who is called the devil is said to have performed among the Greeks; ... For when they tell that Dionysus, son of Jupiter, was begotten by Jupiter's intercourse with Semele ... and when they relate, that being torn in pieces, and having died, he rose again, and ascended to heaven; and when they introduce wine into his mysteries, do I not perceive that the devil has imitated the prophecy announced by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses? And when they tell that the god-man Hercules was strong, and traveled over all the world, and was begotten by Zeus of Alcmene, and ascended to heaven when he died, do I not perceive that the Scripture which speaks of Christ, 'strong as a giant to run his race,' has been in like manner imitated? And when he, the devil brings forward Asclepius as the raiser of the dead and healer of all diseases, may I not say that in this matter likewise he has imitated the prophecies about Christ?”

Justin Martyr and Tertullian tried to explain away the similarities between Mithraism and Christianity. They both claimed that these similarities existed because the demons learned from the Old Testament about the FUTURE rituals of Christianity and then COPIED them BEFORE the start of Christianity (my caps). Thus they acknowledge that the mystery religions pre-dated Christianity.

Clement of Alexandria suggested that Christianity is indeed a mystery religion with “truly sacred mysteries” and that the Christian mysteries offer the pure light and vision of the only true God. He called the Greek mysteries shameless and corrupt. Referring to Christianity Origen wrote, “... we call them, Christianity, our mysteries.” He distinguished Christianity from “the other mysteries.” Celsus, too, implied that Christianity was one of the mystery religions. While discussing Christianity, he referred to the Greek mystery religions as “the other mysteries.”

Clement of Alexandria claimed that Christianity was the best mystery religion. It certainly became the strongest. In the fourth century it managed to eliminate its forerunners and competitors.

Apparently, some had attacked Christianity for being secret or having esoteric doctrines, and Origen defended this by arguing that the Gentiles should treat Christianity like all the other mystery religions, thus putting Christianity in the same class as the other mystery religions.

But, having been influenced by the mystery religions, after it became a major religion in its own right it began to influence the other mystery religions. For example, it is likely that the Dionysians borrowed from the Christians the miracle of turning the water into wine.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...&postcount=597

I asked for citation of all of these, but he never said anything about Clement, Celsus, and Origen.

In the rest of the thread, he has practically admitted that he can’t meet the legitimate criteria, but simply says they are made up by an inerrantist and therefore invalid.

And though another post has plenty, this bit is especially interesting:

Note that the word “mystery” is a key word in Christianity. It appears in the New Testament 22 times in the singular and 5 times in the plural as per the following few examples: “Without any doubt, the mystery of our religion is great.” (1 Timothy 3:16). “The mystery of Christ, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in God” (Ephesians 3:9). “This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.” (Ephesians 5:32) “So that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ” (Colossians 4:3) “When you read this you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ.” (Ephesians 3:4).

It wasn’t until the gospels appeared at the end of he first century that the notion of the “historical Jesus” as we know it emerged, although elements of it can be found in the writings of the early church fathers. For example, In Tatian’s Apology, chapter 21, Tatian says, "We are not fools, men of Greece, when we declare that God has been born in the form of man (his only allusion to the incarnation) . . . Compare your own stories with our narratives." He goes on to describe some of the Greek myths about gods come to earth, undergoing suffering and even death for the benefaction of mankind. "Take a look at your own records and accept us merely on the grounds that we too tell stories." This may well be a reference to the Christian Gospels. But if he can allude to the incarnation in this way, why does he not deal with it openly and at length? His comment is hardly a ringing endorsement, or a declaration that such stories are to be accepted as history.

The way Tatian compares them to the Greek myths implies that he regards them as being on the same level. Certainly, he does not rush to point out that the Christian stories are superior or, unlike the Greek ones, factually true. Nor can we get around the fact that Tatian pointedly ignores those Gospel stories in the rest of his Apology.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...&postcount=600

What’s so funny is he not only got the title of the work wrong, but he’s also wrong about the point that Tatian doesn’t rush to point out that they are superior. Apparently he has never actually read that chapter (see here [http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.iii.ii.xxi.html]).

Also this spiel:

Precisely! The Term 'Mystery' in the New Testament was used often to denote that which is not naturally known to Man, but has to be revealed by God. This is the definition of “Mystery Religion. Thank you. And this is what we find by the bucketful in Paul.

The following features were common to all mystery religions. Admission to the community was by a rite of initiation, a solemn consecration. The initiation was held in secret, which explains why they were called "mysteries." The consecrated were joined by this mystery and were separated from the unconsecrated world, just as Christians set themselves apart from the world. (John 15:19) ... you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world ... (KJV)

Plato indicated that the members of the mystery communities considered each other brothers:
The mystery followers were bound by an oath to keep the mysteries secret. The actual initiation was preceded by numerous rites of purification such as fasting, baptism, and confession. Tertullian wrote, "In certain mysteries, e.g. Isis and Mithra, it is by baptism that members are initiated ..." Clement of Alexandria wrote, "... in the current Mysteries among the Greeks ceremonial purifications hold the premier place."

The mystery religions practiced baptism before Christianity. The second century Christian apologist Justin Martyr did not want to admit that the Christians copied the pagans. He explained the pagan origin of baptism by claiming that the demons learned about baptism from Isaiah and taught it to the pagans: "... the demons prompted those pagans who enter their temples ... to sprinkle themselves also with water; furthermore, they cause them to wash their whole persons."

Plutarch mentions the confession of sins by mystery initiates during the ritual of initiation. "When Antalcidas was being initiated into the mysteries at Samothrace, he was asked by the priest to confess what especially dreadful thing he had done during his life ..." John the Baptist preached confession of sins before baptism: (Mark 1:4-5) John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. (KJV) Confession of sins was a common practice among the early Christians: (James 5:16) Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed. (KJV) (1 John 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (KJV)

During the ceremony of initiation at the greater mysteries of Eleusis, the initiate would see a bright light and would receive the revelation of the mysteries. Similarly, Paul saw a bright light on the road to Damascus. He had a vision of a deity: Jesus. He received the gospel of Jesus by revelation. (Ephesians 3:3) ... how the mystery was made known to me by revelation ... (RSV) Thus, Paul was initiated to the mysteries of Christ.

With this vision the initiate of the mystery religions attained union with the deity and thus was endowed with eternal life. (Likewise, after Paul saw the vision of Jesus, he attained union with him and was endowed with eternal life.) Another symbolic rite was the vesting of the robe of the deity. By putting on the robe, the initiate "put on the deity." Likewise, Paul "put on Christ." (Galatians 3:27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (KJV) The mystery initiates after their initiation adopted a new name. Likewise, when Saul accepted Jesus he adopted a new name: Paul. Also, Simon (a Jewish name) took the name Peter (a Greek name).

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...&postcount=602

[Little Shepherd]

A person named Crimson Hellkite, from here. Whenever I don't credit or link a screwball, it means it comes from somewhere else.

I know him!!! I've seen him around the P&P gaming board on GameFAQs for years!