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Exposing the lies in Jorge's Flood "evidence".

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  • Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
    Obviously, in sea environment you can find trilobites under elasmosauri and a few more things like that.
    And yet we never find Placoderms with marine reptiles or cetaceans. We never find marine reptiles with placoderms or cetaceans. And we never find cetaceans with placoderms and marine reptiles. How does the Flood explain such sorting of large marine life?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by logician bones View Post
      Roy:

      Well, you're still being so vague I don't know what you want, except like I said you seem to want every detail.
      A link to one of the "many detailed scenarios described" that you claimed existed.

      So far your behaviour is entirely consistent with you having made that up.
      Let me ask you a question for an example, not sure if this is what you're going for or not, though. Would you agree that in a global Flood scenario, the behavior at one site could be strongly affected by the details of surrounding sites, for events at the same time?
      Obviously. But since the same is true for standard geology, I don't see a problem.
      For example, the shape of the land affecting currents flowing over it. (Obviously, the definition of "site" gets tricky here, though.) If yes, do you think the water could make local site analysis trickier than in a typical OE scenario of ordinary weather in general, etc.?
      No, I don't think that, mainly because local site analysis under the standard model frequently includes examining strata deposited under flowing water, including river deposits, offshore tidal beach deposits, delta fans and submarine turbulent flows. I suspect that the "ordinary weather" scenario you refer to is actually atypical, in that most geological strata are deposited underwater, with subaerial deposits being rarer.

      Take the scenario of underwater canyon erosion, from earlier discussion, due to sediment-laden currents (one of the causes of underwater channels). If there's an obstruction in the way of where the current would otherwise go, this will affect the channel from that point on. Yes?
      Correct. But this isn't a problem for standard geology. Why is it a problem for flood geology?

      Obviously the OE scenario isn't free of such things, of course. And there's much more time involved, so I'm not sure what the right answer is, but I'm curious what you think.
      I think you don't actually have any examples of detailed geological analysis under a YEC framework; that you don't have a coherent flood model, just a bunch of possibilities that are too vague to be useful in practice; and that you are avoiding answering specific questions because you have no answers but don't want to admit it.

      I'm also curious if you could give an example of what you say OEs have done satisfactorily. And not argument by link or vague statements; clearly give the details in your own wording. And be sure to include the weaknesses. This would go a long way toward clearing up what it is you want (maybe it feels clear in your mind, but I can't read minds; I can only go by what little you have said).
      I've already provided one example. Here's another. Both of these include a detailed description of each of the strata in a geological sequence, including a history of how each strata was laid down supported by details of their internal composition. Both also include admissions of the points in the geological succession where there is uncertainty of the exact processes involved.

      Despite your claim that there are "many detailed scenarios described" from a YEC viewpoint, I have yet to see anything similar. Nor do I ever expect to because, quite frankly, flood geology is complete bunkum that relies on its followers not realising that its advocates are cherry-picking data they can explain and ignoring the vast majority of detailed stratigraphy in favour of a few vague claims about mid-ocean venting, hydrological sorting, inrushes, floating vegetation mats, etc that don't hold up under close inspection.
      Roy, another thing. You're the one who is so curious about this, so here's a suggestion to avoid the problem of too much time being wasted...
      Here's my suggestion to avoid time being wasted: you spend the 30 or so seconds necessary to find one of the "many detailed scenarios described" that you claim exist for the YEC worldview, or admit that you can't.

      And if you really want to stop wasting time, as opposed to doing the YEC shuffle, you could start answering direct and simple questions such as this one:
      You have claimed that all deposits from the Cambrian to the Upper Cretaceous were deposited in a year-long event that started with an upwelling at the mid-ocean ridges. And that trace fossils seen in Upper Cretaceous deposits were caused by animals that survived this event long enough to walk on sediment layers deposited near, but not at, the top of the deposits. And these sediment layers hardened and were later overlaid by subsequent inrushes that deposited additional material later in the event. Then some of the layers were tilted through 90 degrees. But you won't say what the sequence of events was at any one specific site, or give any quantitative detail at all. Correct?
      rather than avoiding them.
      Quote key passages from the AIG link you cited, showing what their suggested solution is, and then explain (notice you didn't) why it allegedly doesn't work
      Why? The majority of the article is irrelevant to any issue actually under discussion; I linked to it purely to support my statement that fine particles take too long to settle through water for them to be deposited during a one-year event.
      So instead of wasting my time, spend yours. Should be reasonable, no?
      No. I'm the one taking time to research articles and cite them, and to respond to your questions and points individually, while you can't be bothered.

      After I stated that "I didn't say that YECs had produced fewer detailed scenarios of rock strata formation, I said I have seen none" you responded "Yes, there are many detailed scenarios described. If you haven't read them, that doesn't make them not exist."

      Yet despite repeated requests for an example, you have yet to produce one despite it requiring, if what you said was true, only a quick search on Google.

      How about you stop wasting my time, and actually produce something you claimed was readily available?

      P.S. In all my years of discussing origins I've yet to find a YEC advocate who wasn't dishonest, or hypocritical, or both. I'm not at all surprised that you're proving no different.
      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Actually the Black Sea flood is dated by many methods and you reject all dating methods, but not C14 dating. You reject science as indicated, and responses from others concerning dating methods has been shown to be nothing more that bizzare and dishonest, and not remotely based on actual science, as reflected in the following nonsense.
        I do not reject all dating methods, only most.

        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Impossible based on the objective physical evidence in these formations. For example; The carboniferous formations contain patterns of vast meandering river systems, varved strata, strata containing, mud cracks, soil formation, eroded land surfaces with weathered regolith like we see today, stand of forests with stumps with extensive root systems and soil formation, numerous fine fossil tracks of worms, and other small animals in layer after layer for thousands of feet.
        If you analyse diverse places as overlay at different levels, no doubt.

        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        What you consider has no basis in science.
        This proposal is impossible simply by basic high school knowledge of the nature and chemistry of Salt.
        Depending on what there was for opportunities for osmosis ...

        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Basic high school chemistry is all you need to know that your bizzaro proposals concerning formation of vast regions of limestones hundreds of feet thick containing vast coral reefs is impossible. Gypsum in the vast deposits must also take into consideration basic chemistry, which will not work in any such flood considerations.

        Your proposals violate virtually all fundamental laws of physics, and basic principles of chemistry, and the actual geologic evidence as well. Your proposals concerning the formation of limestone and salt cannot be replicated in simple lab experiments, and the sedimentation experiments you presented were terribly misleading and only apply to sand deposits.
        Give me one exact location where you have hundreds of feet of one coral reef above another preserved.

        Then tell me if the dig has given possibilities of disclosing one coral reef separately after another.

        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Carbon 14 testing is not related here. Glaciation and the Ice Ages are based on actual physical evidence of the action of ice, and cannot be explained by floods.
        You did not get the point, in my scenario for recalibration of C14-dating, I need the levels of cosmic radiation to have been higher, over mean of today's total background radiation, to get a sufficiently quick build up of C-14-levels.

        And cosmic radition seems to be productive of cold.

        As for how Oard relates ice age to Flood, I leave that to him, he is meteorologist.

        And obviously, both his and my work are about explaining, not about proving, ice age, which we both considered tok place mainly after the Flood.
        http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

        Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bret View Post
          And yet we never find Placoderms with marine reptiles or cetaceans. We never find marine reptiles with placoderms or cetaceans. And we never find cetaceans with placoderms and marine reptiles. How does the Flood explain such sorting of large marine life?
          I'm comfortable with explaing it as about the pre-Flood habitat. Vienna was at a beach with a seal (praepusa nussdorfensis to paleontologists*) and Linz was some kind of sea environment with a whale (Cetotheriopsis lintianus to paleontologists).

          We do see diversified faunas, both land and sea, now, why not back then?

          * Sorry : Praepusa vindobonensis.
          http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

          Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
            Do you think that saving Noah and his family was God's only goal during the flood? Didn't God also have the goal of providing a witness to the surrounding people and an opportunity for them to repent? Didn't God also have the goal of providing through Noah a typological picture of salvation through Christ? Sure, God could have told Noah to take a trek, but then these other goals would not have been fulfilled.
            Typology about Church as the saving Ark is even greater emphasis on it, if the Flood was global.

            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            There are similar questions that could be asked about many events.
            • Why did God make the Israelites march around Jericho for seven days prior to the wall falling down?
            • Why did God make the Israelite look upon the bronze serpent to be healed of snake bite in the wilderness?
            • Why did Jesus make the blind man go to the Pool of Siloam to heal his blindness?

            One reason that immediately comes to mind is that if Noah had simply been told to leave the region he would not have been able to bear witness to the wrath of God.
            Well, if the Flood was not global, that too had not born witness to the wrath of God.
            http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

            Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              One reason that immediately comes to mind is that if Noah had simply been told to leave the region he would not have been able to bear witness to the wrath of God.
              Originally posted by Roy View Post
              ...until he returned.
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Don't you mean "if."
              I don't think he did. He pointed to a hole in your logic. Sooner or later a regional Flood would have shown survivors its limits.
              http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

              Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by logician bones View Post
                hans: For the record, "Mount" Ararat is a recent volcano. The account refers to a mountain in the region of Ararat. Apparently it can't be that mountain (well, unless its current surface added onto an older, smaller volcano, I guess). If memory serves... (1)

                A good example of the poetry I'm talking about is in Job when people are called worms and maggots. (Job is a poetic book, different from the historical reports like Genesis.) (2)

                Re: Mark 10:6, I covered that earlier, but I'll elaborate in case it was unclear. Mark doesn't specify what is meant by "creation" there, and since humans are the immediate context, it's obvious the focus is on them. He could mean "the world of humans". Or life, or Earth's surface as we know it. If the "stars revealed" theory is right, the third option would be what Genesis is describing, and this NT statement would simply be referring to it. (3)
                (1) Or unless its current surface was lower, but all of its ground was lifted up tectonically.

                (2) First hit on OT worms involving book of Job is Job 25:6.

                Here is all of chapter 25: [1] Then Baldad the Suhite answered, and I said: [2] Power and terror are with him, who maketh peace in his high places. [3] Is there any numbering of his soldiers? and upon whom shall not his light arise? [4] Can man be justified compared with God, or he that is born of a woman appear clean? [5] Behold even the moon doth not shine, and the stars are not pure in his sight.

                [6] How much less man that is rottenness and the son of man who is a worm?

                Book of Job says Baldad the Suhite says so, and Baldad the Suhite obviously expressed sth like a Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity in among other things the figure of speech of calling man a worm.

                This does not mean Book of Job is using a figure of speech in attributing these words to Baldad, nor that the Book of Job subscribes to Total Depravity.

                (3) Creation normally does not carry such limited senses.
                http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

                Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by logician bones View Post
                  Yeah..... sorry, you're trying the "cylinder of water" argument on the wrong guy. I'm well aware of that argument and use it myself against certain nutty skeptics. My view is the water seeks a level. But that doesn't prove the level is above ALL mountains. Right?
                  So you are basically saying Andes and Himalaya were above Flood waters?

                  Why do you find fish fossils up there then?
                  http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

                  Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by logician bones View Post
                    The passages confirming mountains covering are not quoted as from God; they're narrative, and lead directly into the narrative that clearly shows the Ark passengers perspective by the need to release birds to figure out if the waters had receded. Note too that I subscribe to a somewhat complex view of the signatures to the accounts in the Genesis compilation; basically before the Abraham section they are ending signatures. Both of these narration details are within the account attributed (in my interpretation) to "sons of Noah". So the same narrative perspective would be natural to it.

                    ...

                    I also noted earlier that if they couldn't just look out the vents and see that the waters had receded, they probably couldn't see whether there were distant mountains on the horizon either, and 15 cubits could easily simply be the depth that the Ark rested in the water (its height was 30 cubits). So this could simply mean they didn't notice it hitting anything, and "under the whole heavens" in that case would have to be just a way to say "everywhere we went".
                    I think that 15 cubits would have been its water line, and that if the Ark was standing on the highest mountain when they got in, if they knew the water line by calculation, they also knew it was above that highest water line by at least 15 cubits as soon as ark started to move.

                    We must be clear that the narrator's perspective, in any historic book, is the word of God.

                    This means that if Noah had been for instance ignorant of Himalayas or Andes, this would have put the word of God in error, if they weren't covered too.
                    http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

                    Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
                      I'm comfortable with explaing it as about the pre-Flood habitat. Vienna was at a beach with a seal (praepusa nussdorfensis to paleontologists*) and Linz was some kind of sea environment with a whale (Cetotheriopsis lintianus to paleontologists).
                      So Vienna was at a beach with a seal... and was offshore continental shelf with coquina shell beds and was a river floodplain and a delta lying beyond a river outlet and the middle of a shallow lagoon... ref
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                      Comment


                      • Without looking too much on the link at first:

                        Originally posted by Roy View Post
                        So Vienna was at a beach with a seal... and was offshore continental shelf with coquina shell beds
                        As per fossils, it would seem yes. I suppose some squeezing could have been done during the Flood.

                        Originally posted by Roy View Post
                        and was a river floodplain and a delta lying beyond a river outlet
                        That would have been the "reverse Danube" and its delta to that sea shore, see squeezing.

                        I feel good about having predicted one "reverse Danube" as one of the rivers of Paradise : Hevilah South Arabia, Ganges, turns up, flows West along Syr or Amu Daria, into what is now Black Sea and from there on to Vienna.

                        Alternative : Hevilah or Ethiopia, up Nile, up through Mediterranean into what is now Black Sea, from there a "reverse Danube" into that lagoon which was Vienna before the Flood.

                        Originally posted by Roy View Post
                        and the middle of a shallow lagoon...
                        As mentioned, with sea shore and delta, you have lagoons too. Plus some squeezing of horizontality to verticality during Flood or just afterwards when Alps were rising to give verticality to flows of water draining the wet ground.
                        http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

                        Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
                          Give me one exact location where you have hundreds of feet of one coral reef above another preserved.
                          The Eniwetok Atoll in the Marshall Islands.
                          Source: Perry Philips


                          We will here concentrate on one atoll - Eniwetok - as an example of how we can determine the age of a reef. This reef was thoroughly investigated by deep core drillings in preparation for its use as a test-site for a hydrogen bomb explosion. This atoll is roughly circular with all the standard characteristics of a growing reef. It rests upon an extinct volcano, as expected, and the volcano rises about two miles above the ocean floor. The reef itself is 4,610 feet tall.

                          http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/or...coralreefs.htm

                          © Copyright Original Source


                          Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
                          Then tell me if the dig has given possibilities of disclosing one coral reef separately after another.
                          Sorry, I can't make sense of what you are saying here.
                          "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
                            Sorry, I can't make sense of what you are saying here.
                            I was thinking in terms of fossil only reefs, separated by sediment. It is about for instance Bonaparte Basin, where an Elasmosaur was found above a Trilobite separated by a coral reef which cannot have all grown in the flood and therefore argues time between fossilisation events.

                            [Edit : supposedly, and if grown in situ].

                            Source: Perry Philips

                            We will here concentrate on one atoll - Eniwetok - as an example of how we can determine the age of a reef. This reef was thoroughly investigated by deep core drillings in preparation for its use as a test-site for a hydrogen bomb explosion. This atoll is roughly circular with all the standard characteristics of a growing reef. It rests upon an extinct volcano, as expected, and the volcano rises about two miles above the ocean floor. The reef itself is 4,610 feet tall.

                            http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/or...coralreefs.htm

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Going to their site:

                            "And there is one more simple reason why such high estimates assumed by AIG and others are entirely unreasonable. The reason is this -- the net growth of the reef can only be as fast as the net subsidence of the seamount or platform on which it is growing. This is a limiting factor. Thus, even if a reef could grow at, say, 3cm per year rather than around 1cm or less as virtually all of the empirical estimates show, the reef can still only grow to the surface of the water. Where rates of subsidence of seamounts can be measured, it is only a few mm per year. Subsidence rates have been estimated with high precision for the Hawaiian Islands, which are similar in most respects to the submerged seamount atop which the Eniwetok atoll rests. These islands are subsiding at only a few mm per year."
                            Subsidence means the amount of nourishment the coral gets, right? Check algal bloom, diversify to apply to reef growth ... perhaps the reef between Trilobite and Elasmosaur did grown in site after all, if flood conditions allowed reefs to grow unusually fast.

                            But there is also the possibility, since the depth of "one reef" is verified by drill cores, that lots of coral substance was washed there during the flood.

                            "Carbon dating of drowned reefs on the side of Hawaii show that it has subsided at this slow rate for hundreds of thousands of years. In fact, its a little more interesting than that. You can actually predict the radiometric ages of a drowned coral reef, with considerable accuracy, simply by dividing the depth in mm by the observed subsidence rates in mm per year. ... Radiometric ages of Hawaiian corals compared to ages predicted by extrapolating observed subsidence rate of 2.7mm per year. Judging by the close correlation between predicted age and actual age, the rate of subsidence for the island of Hawaii has remained very close to 2.7mm per year throughout at least the last half-million years."
                            While coral reefs can give carbon dates, carbon dates cannot give "at least the last half-million years".

                            Carbon dates can definitely be off by orders of magnitude due to rising C14 levels, so are no proof. The other methods used are, especially K-Ar, worthless.

                            While talking about carbon dates, here is my to yesterday latest work on these:

                            Creation vs. Evolution : If Göbekli Tepe is Tower of Babel ...
                            http://creavsevolu.blogspot.fr/2017/02/if-gobekli-tepe-is-tower-of-babel.html


                            The reason for title is that I am using archaeological abandonment of Göbekli Tepe and its carbon date along with Biblical date (one version, as explained) of Dispersion of Tongues and Nations. I get 2733 BC as having had 49.279 % of modern carbon in atmosphhere back then, giving 5850 years over and above real age, adding up to 8583 BC - and 8600 BC is the archaeological date for when Babel was abandoned. Or when Göbekli Tepe was abandoned. Sorry, lack of sleep.
                            http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

                            Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
                              The other methods used are, especially K-Ar, worthless.
                              This conversation has just been completely nuts, but this just leapt out at me. It's utterly and completely wrong, and nobody within the scientific community thinks that. And he just randomly throws it out without any evidence whatsoever to back that up.

                              I'm not interested in arguing the point, but it just amazes me of the pathology that allows people to build up an alternative reality that is so thoroughly entrenched that they can make statements like that with such utter confidence.
                              "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
                                I was thinking in terms of fossil only reefs, separated by sediment. It is about for instance Bonaparte Basin, where an Elasmosaur was found above a Trilobite separated by a coral reef which cannot have all grown in the flood and therefore argues time between fossilisation events.

                                [Edit : supposedly, and if grown in situ].

                                Source: Perry Philips

                                We will here concentrate on one atoll - Eniwetok - as an example of how we can determine the age of a reef. This reef was thoroughly investigated by deep core drillings in preparation for its use as a test-site for a hydrogen bomb explosion. This atoll is roughly circular with all the standard characteristics of a growing reef. It rests upon an extinct volcano, as expected, and the volcano rises about two miles above the ocean floor. The reef itself is 4,610 feet tall.

                                http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/or...coralreefs.htm

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                Hans,

                                In general, a valid scientific theory must plausibly explain all or certainly the vast majority of the data. When talking about the age of the earth, you can't ignore a specific data set that implies 200,000 years+ in favor of one that maybe can fit in your 6,000 year timeframe. The corals Kirk describes show characteristics that are impossible to explain in a flood scenario. If you want to say the lower structures which are CORAL 'accidentally just sort of look like coral' then you undermine ALL intelligent design arguments from probability. And in reality you are proposing the impossible as an explanation. They could be faked by an 'appearance of age' argument, but they did not form as the result of a giant flood. You either must show that 4610 feet of coral can grow in less than 6,000 years or accept that this formation and others that imply even greater age are in direct conflict with the hypothesis the Earth is <6,000 years old, which them implication that hypothesis fails.


                                Going to their site:



                                Subsidence means the amount of nourishment the coral gets, right? Check algal bloom, diversify to apply to reef growth ... perhaps the reef between Trilobite and Elasmosaur did grown in site after all, if flood conditions allowed reefs to grow unusually fast.
                                Now you could have googled that hans. Sustenance is nourishment. Subsidence is how much the coral settles/collapses over time. So what that means is that the coral growh rather is COUNTERED by the subsidence of the entire mass. So it's going down at the same time it's going up, and how much it grows per year is the difference. Their point is the coral can't grow above sea level - it must stay under the water. So it can't grow any more than the mass itself collapses per year.

                                But there is also the possibility, since the depth of "one reef" is verified by drill cores, that lots of coral substance was washed there during the flood.



                                While coral reefs can give carbon dates, carbon dates cannot give "at least the last half-million years".

                                Carbon dates can definitely be off by orders of magnitude due to rising C14 levels, so are no proof. The other methods used are, especially K-Ar, worthless.
                                You are right about c14 being limited to the last 50,000 years or so. You are wrong about them being off orders of magnitude with the presense of modern calibrations from tree rings and other other organisms that mark their time on the Earth in readable ways (like the growth marks of coral).

                                Speaking of which - you should look down the page one article at the subheading

                                Tidal Slowdown, Coral Growth, and the Age of the Earth

                                Here is a real bombshell for you. Three different factors: radiometric dating, tidal friction slowing the Earth's rotation, and coral growth rates and rings all come together to mutually confirm each other. In a nutshell, we know how much tidal influence slows the Earth. So we can calculate have much shorter a day would have been 300 million years ago from today. We also have fossil corals in formations that we know the radiometric dates for, and we know how to determine not merely daily growth patterns from the corals, but also yealy patterns.

                                Bottom line, the number of days per year recorded in the corals in layers radiometrically dated to be several hundred million years old matches closely the calculated number of days we would expect based on the known rate at which the Earth is slowing due to tidal friction. And not just for one set - two different sets, one in the devonian, one in the pennsylvanian, separated by more than 100 million years. They both show the correct number of days per year.

                                And the reality is, this kind of correlation is not unique. The green river varves show correlations to astronomical cycles of precession that vary from the solar cycle of 12 years to the full on precessional cycles of 23,000 and 100,000 years.

                                Which brings me to a motto I adopted several years ago in this debate. No matter how smart a scientist is that advocates a preferred view of the data but which ultimately is not REAL, the fact is the what is real will be supported by the data at all levels, and from all directions, and from all disciplines. IF something is real in history, then all the markers that should be left behind WILL be left behind. And no matter how smart the scientist, a contrived hypothesis will always yield at some point to what is REAL in the data, because no human is smart enough to consider ALL the potential possibilties. If we just follow the data where it leads, then as we learn more, as we gather more data, our conclusions will tend to self-correct to conformance with what was REAL in history, because when you have so many disperate types of data and records, generally there can be only one plausible explanation for it all. And that expanation will tend towards what actually happened.


                                Jim
                                Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-14-2017, 10:45 AM.
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

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