Insidious "revivals"

[Kelp]

Just because there is the accusation of false doctrine does not mean there is false doctrine. People accuse falsely. The article associates them with doctrines that are only related to them by the accusers.

Got any proof of that? You've said over and over again that the accusations against the KCF's and Bentley are bunk. I'd like to see you put your money where your mouth is. Let's see some actual response with sources to the article in the OP, hmm?


You say that those who criticize these guys are trying to usurp God's job. Yet you rail just as much as they do and say the same things.

[Sparko]

You got it backwards. You see signs and wonders and you immediately jump to "lying signs and wonders," because you are actually afraid that Satan might heal someone. You look at the vessel God is using, and not the work that God is doing. All those people are not lying.

oh please. How do you know if they are healed? He talks to them, pushes them over and they lay there twitching till someone carries them off the stage.

Have you talked to any of them a week or so later to see if they are healed?

Did Jesus push people over and leave them twitching on the ground? Or did he tell them to get up and be healed?

Has Todd regrown any limbs or done anything that is verifiably a miracle?

Its all showmanship, hypnosis, and cold reading.

[Chaotic Void]

You got it backwards. You see signs and wonders and you immediately jump to "lying signs and wonders," because you are actually afraid that Satan might heal someone. You look at the vessel God is using, and not the work that God is doing. All those people are not lying.

So what your saying is... Benny Hinn is a bona-fide Healer and messenger of God?

[nomad]

See, in my world, I've been in the pentecostal church for a long time (since I was 12, until about 30, and even after that from time to time). And - even around people I respected who swore up and down their belief in healing, some who believed they had the gift of healing - I never saw it much. One that I was sure of, never, though I have heard a few respectable stories that I do believe at least. But I did see a lot of hand-waving as well. I am not a cessationist. I believe that those things did happen and can still happen. I also believe that they are fairly rare, though I am not sure why. You can accuse me of unbelief, but I've known plenty of true believers who were believing for their healing for a long time and never got it, and you can't accuse all of them. I believe probably it takes a dedication to holiness that most people do not even aspire to. The early church was far different than we are in so many ways.

The guy from the Brownsville revivals once came and spoke at a church in Jacksonville once. His sermon was forgettable, but at the end his big thing was for us to all get together and hold a rope over our heads so that God would bless us that much. You know what, I have no problem with God blessing me - it would take me all day to count the blessings He has given me right now - but one of those blessings is wisdom, and wisdom tells me that revivals are usually associated with great repentance. Not how good it's going to be for me. And when I read the early church fathers, I see that their focus was on practical advice for living a holy life. If anything, they spoke against desiring too much from God. And if you want to look at a time when the gifts were abundant, I look to them and what the people they considered leaders taught on.

I'm not going to go as far as they are and say that it's demonic or anything, because I don't know. My mother is trying to get everyone in my family to go like it's a tourist attraction or something. And if I'm in town and she wants to go, I probably will, just to see what's going on. But right now I don't see enough evidence that it is real to assume that it is.

You say we don't have evidence that this isn't from God. That is a valid concern for those making accusations. I don't have the evidence, so I won't say that. But I should also say that, from here, the evidence that it is real is also shaky. I also don't find your accusations and hand-waving a very encouraging proof that it is doing anyone any good either. And I think you need to accept that not everyone is going to agree with it. Accept it and go on.

[Zguy28]

What is with you people? Certainly not God! You must be Southern Baptists! Not everything you call 'demonic' is demonic. Remember the Pharisees said that Jesus cast out demons by the power of Beelzebub.

You got so many accusations going on in your link, your link is demonic!

Have you ever cast a demon out of someone? Or do you just call those who do evil?

You got a problem with Southern Baptists?

[Michelle]

You got a problem with Southern Baptists?

Yeah, I was kind of wondering about that too...

[YoungOne]

I don't know about all the healings but there are a few people there with x-rays of before and after. I don't if any of these of been posted online. However, I have trouble judging something if I haven't watch/or been there myself which it seems to be a lot of what we are doing. People's doctrine/teaching does change( I know mine does). God can reteach us good doctrine. Please watch it and can taken specific teaching at the current revival and listen to what the Spirit is telling you.

[Kelp]

If they've been retaught true doctrine, then they need to repent of their heresies and affirm the true doctrine. These guys are public ministers, they should know better. Where is the evidence that they've recanted, hmm?

Does God work a few true healings at these events? Possibly. But if so that is a great gift to the one healed and that doesn't mean that the guys holding them are not dangerous false teachers that need to be repudiated by the Body at large. I probably should have called this thread "Insidious "prophets" because that is what I am really driving at. Are these guys real teachers who should be followed and submitted to? Especially these KCF guys who seem to advocate an almost unquestionable authority over their followers.

[TyRockwell]

If they've been retaught true doctrine, then they need to repent of their heresies and affirm the true doctrine.

You have not specified a heresy. What would you have them repent of? No vague, unspecifed answer. Be specific.

These guys are public ministers, they should know better. Where is the evidence that they've recanted, hmm?

Again, The accusation is not the fact. You've shown no evidence of anything that is sin. They should know better than what?

Does God work a few true healings at these events? Possibly. But if so that is a great gift to the one healed and that doesn't mean that the guys holding them are not dangerous false teachers that need to be repudiated by the Body at large.

You just said that these are false prophets, without giving a reason. Do you drive by a church you've never been into, point and say, "they are not showing that they are not false! You don't know, you only assume you know.

I probably should have called this thread "Insidious "prophets" because that is what I am really driving at. Are these guys real teachers who should be followed and submitted to? Especially these KCF guys who seem to advocate an almost unquestionable authority over their followers.

They advocate following Jesus, not themselves.

[JardinPrayer]

The only X-ray situation I've seen is the 7-year old girl whose parents claimed she had a "broken elbow," which Todd had called out the previous night. The girl was too shy to speak for herself, but her Daddy held her in his arms with her face buried in his neck while her mother showed x-rays of her elbow - before and after. She said it had been "broken," but the X-ray showed a fracture. The girl claimed Jesus came to her and laid hands on her and healed her after Bentley called it out. She waved her arm around for the audience to show it was feeling great. The "after" X-ray showed no evidence of a fracture. Amazing? Miraculous? Well, considering that the "before" and "after" films were taken 2 weeks apart, I'm going to have to say I'm not impressed.

Then there was the blind guy who was jumping up and down and praising the lord because he could see shadows of Todd's hands waving in front of his face on that incredibly brightly-lit stage. Sorry, I'm still unimpressed. If God were going to open that man's blind eyes, why would he tease him with shadows? How does that glorify Him?

I hear a dead man was raised, but somehow that is not on video. Who in blazes brought a dead guy to the revival, anyway?

[YoungOne]

Well lets be reminded about the blind guy that Jesus healed thought people were like moving trees. So some healing can be progressive Jesus usually instantly healed but not always. Like, I said I don't know where to obtain x-rays. Signs and wonders were never so you would be impressed by were to bear witness to the truth and to show his power. Personally, I think Todd but especially the worship leaders are keeping it focus on Jesus and his presence and not us from what I have seen.

[Sparko]

I hear a dead man was raised, but somehow that is not on video. Who in blazes brought a dead guy to the revival, anyway?

Weekend at Bernie's?

[TyRockwell]

Well lets be reminded about the blind guy that Jesus healed thought people were like moving trees. So some healing can be progressive Jesus usually instantly healed but not always. Like, I said I don't know where to obtain x-rays. Signs and wonders were never so you would be impressed by were to bear witness to the truth and to show his power. Personally, I think Todd but especially the worship leaders are keeping it focus on Jesus and his presence and not us from what I have seen.

Good point.

To another point, there may have been some confusion. One charge that was leveled at the Bob Jones who is associated with The Elijahlist, may have actually been a charge to the Bob Jones of Bob Jones University. There are TWO DIFFERENT Bob Jones. The Bob Jones of the Elijahlist is not the one of Bob Jones University.

[TyRockwell]

I'm sorry Ty, I serve a God who doesn't just do things to mess with my head.

Nor does He bless things that have heresies and blasphemies and outright deception by demons happening at them.

God does do things that mess with your head. He does things that you don't expect, or that you have a hard time accepting as from him. In fact He calls His own work a "strange work."

Isa 28:19-21
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
(KJV)


Also, let the record show the neither Raphael or Kelp has produced specific examples of the heresies or blasphemies they have repeatedly claimed.

[Kelp]

Ty, I don't have the time right now in my life to do your homework for you. I presented a link in my OP with tons of examples but you just hand waved it away.

If you don't feel like doing a little research, then I have no time for this.

Have it your way. I'm leaving this thread and consider my accusations "officially" withdrawn.

Jardin, YoungOne, think what you guys want to. I just implore you to very careful about this.

Farewell.