Is a Suboptimal World a Problem?

[whag]

the post is here http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post343620

but like I said it is just my theory. A guess really. I sure as heck don't think I am as smart as God and know what his plan was/is.

Thanks. Here goes:

That isn't the Christian answer. The Christian answer is "apparently not, because then God would have made that perfect world"

My personal thinking goes a bit like this.

1. If God allows free will to sin, there is no world he could create where nobody would ever not eventually sin.

Yes! Adam or his descendants couldn't continually choose the fork of obedience. If that option was available, it would only delay the ultimate world.

2. If he is going to have to create a world where people eventually sin, might as well make the world where we sin early, so you don't end up with a mixed bag.

Interesting. Perhaps you should consider an evolutionary perspective, since it's precisely our wild apparatus that gives us a proclivity to sin. See how early we became territorial and began to wage war.

3. So he created the world where mankind freely chose to sin right at the beginning (I am a molinist by the way)

Again, human evolution beautifully explains why imperfection was expressed so early. We descended from animals and possess the unnecessary equipment of species that needed to survive in the wild.

4. In order to redeem this world and give people a way out, he chooses various people throughout time to carry his message of salvation. Eventually the Son comes to Earth as Jesus to be our Savior.

Problem: the expression of imperfection, as you pointed out, is inevitable, so giving people "a way out" makes no sense. Imperfection is woven into the teleology, so why is God disappointed by that necessary step that ultimately effects the perfection of the ultimate world?

5. Basically those who choose Jesus are saying to God, "I want to follow you. I willingly give up my free will to sin and subject my will to yours"

Okay, but that doesn't clarify the problem I pointed out above.

6. Thus, in "heaven" those who chose this will not be able to sin, but only because of their previous free-will choice to give up that ability to God.

The result is a world now where you can have free will and sin, and you can use that free will to reject God and suffer eternal separation from him, or use that free will to choose God as your Lord and Savior and eventually you will be unable to sin and be (ironically) free.

"The result is a world now..." is incorrect. That was the environment from the beginning, not something that arose later. Adam always had free will to sin.

So as far as God's plan goes, yes, this is the optimal world. He could not have created it any other way and still give us complete free will to choose or reject him.

Yes, but that's basically say this:


God created a world that he knows will be corrupted by the expression of human imperfection (territoriality and war, for instance). No other teleological option is available but that one.

Therefore, God created a world in which he depends on the expression of imperfection in order to effect the event that leads to the ultimate perfect world that he wants.

Interestingly, a perfect Eden isn't even required in this view and unnecessarily complicates it. Why the need for perfection in a world that God designed to be imperfect?

[JimL]

JimL, let me answer it in simple terms for you.

Murder is bad. Even if your victim goes to heaven. You cut out the rest of their entire life, everything good or bad they could have done. Possibly their children, and descendants for all time. Canceled every contact they could have had with hundreds and thousands of people. Stopped all of the good they could have brought to the world. Could that person have become President? Cured Cancer? Been the father of the person who first steps foot on Mars? People don't exist in isolation, they affect the rest of society good or bad, so when you murder someone you are not snipping a single thread, but an entire web of connections.

Human life is precious. We don't exist just to go to heaven. We exist to care and love for one another, to do good. God wants us to help and love others, here and now. Otherwise he would just make us drop dead the moment we become Christians and poof us into heaven.

So no, abortion is not "good" because the children go to heaven. They never even had a chance at life.

I didn'tsay anything about the good or bad concerning murder, or concerning a murderer, nor did I consider what god wanted, what I asked was wouldn't it be great for the baby who is lucky enough to go straight to heaven. Now, why should what the baby may have done on earth be of any consequence to the baby if the baby gets to go straight to heaven? Why should the baby care if it had a chance in this earthly life to take the wrong path and end up in hell? If you had the choice, which path would you take, would you opt for heaven straight forth, or would you opt for the trial and the great possibility of failure and eternal hell?

[JimL]

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaug...the-canaanites

IOW, it isn't unreasonable to weigh the benefit of going to heaven against the sorrows of living on earth and being adopted by the Hebrews. Being adopted would've made the Amelekite children sad, I guess. =/

Did you notice that that the above, basically the same argument they skewered me for making, was ignored?

[whag]

Did you notice that that the above, basically the same argument they skewered me for making, was ignored?

Yes, I did. Don't feel too bad for your crude presentation; you essentially used the same logic as Craig. That exonerates you for asking the question, I think.

[Sparko]

Thanks. Here goes:



Yes! Adam or his descendants couldn't continually choose the fork of obedience. If that option was available, it would only delay the ultimate world.



Interesting. Perhaps you should consider an evolutionary perspective, since it's precisely our wild apparatus that gives us a proclivity to sin. See how early we became territorial and began to wage war.



Again, human evolution beautifully explains why imperfection was expressed so early. We descended from animals and possess the unnecessary equipment of species that needed to survive in the wild.




Problem: the expression of imperfection, as you pointed out, is inevitable, so giving people "a way out" makes no sense. Imperfection is woven into the teleology, so why is God disappointed by that necessary step that ultimately effects the perfection of the ultimate world?



Okay, but that doesn't clarify the problem I pointed out above.

6. Thus, in "heaven" those who chose this will not be able to sin, but only because of their previous free-will choice to give up that ability to God.



"The result is a world now..." is incorrect. That was the environment from the beginning, not something that arose later. Adam always had free will to sin.




Yes, but that's basically say this:


God created a world that he knows will be corrupted by the expression of human imperfection (territoriality and war, for instance). No other teleological option is available but that one.

Therefore, God created a world in which he depends on the expression of imperfection in order to effect the event that leads to the ultimate perfect world that he wants.

Interestingly, a perfect Eden isn't even required in this view and unnecessarily complicates it. Why the need for perfection in a world that God designed to be imperfect?

[whag]

not sure what your objection is. God didn't WANT sin and imperfection, but as he could not give us free will and still have sinless perfection, he allowed sin and imperfection so that we could freely choose him, and he will then redeem the world. Kinda like not being able to grow a garden without allowing weeds. eventually the weeds will be pulled and destroyed and the Garden harvested.

The weed analogy is a good place to start. Weeds are just other plants. They aren't necessary to grow a garden but inevitably will grow because their seeds are in the soil. Human imperfection, on the other hand, had to be expressed to trigger the events that will lead to the ultimate world where natural and moral evil don't exist. Weeds don't serve any analogous purpose to that.

This doesn't address the fact that without the expression of imperfection, the world would perpetually be under threat of sin's expression. Also, Satan would still be roaming it, trying to bring about its expression. You acknowledge that human beings performing perfectly from Genesis to now was never likely. That's an admirable concession, but the point still remains that God couldn't get to the world he wants without the expression of evil.

It's not so much an objection as an observation about how paradoxical, weird, and hard to believe the traditional premise is. Some Christian theologians have acknowledged this.

[stfoskey15]

Why does God allow an enemy? Couldn't he stop and/or kill Satan?

[whag]

Why does God allow an enemy? Couldn't he stop and/or kill Satan?

Because an enemy is crucial to the teleology to get to the ultimate world. He couldn't bypass the step of creaturely rebellion. That rebellion triggers the events that ultimately lead to a world without natural and moral evil.

Without an enemy, no ultimate world.

[bling]

Because an enemy is crucial to the teleology to get to the ultimate world. He couldn't bypass the step of creaturely rebellion. That rebellion triggers the events that ultimately lead to a world without natural and moral evil.

Without an enemy, no ultimate world.

[whag]

Sorry bling. Let me get back to you sometime this weekend after I digest it some more.

[JimL]

If man can not achieve what god expects of them here on earth, if in the end a christ like nature still has to be bestowed upon man as a charity, then god could have bestowed it upon them in the first place. Free will has nothing to do with it. There are two choices according to christianity, heaven or hell. Put those two choices to anyone and I can assure you, no one is going to choose hell.

[stfoskey15]

That could be. I still don't buy that the debt caused by sin is unbelievably huge, though.

[37818]

That could be. I still don't buy that the debt caused by sin is unbelievably huge, though.

Yeah. That is part of the reason you are not a Christian. ". . . holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: . . ."

[whag]

Yeah. That is part of the reason you are not a Christian. ". . . holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: . . ."

Strange given that the design depended on the expression of anthropological imperfection. Or do you think that Adam and resulting generations could have taken the "Be Perfect" fork in the road and maintained that perfection indefinitely?

[JimL]

Yeah. That is part of the reason you are not a Christian. ". . . holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: . . ."

What is meant there by holiness 37818? Is anyone holy prior to death? Christianity says no. Ask Sparko, holiness is given as a charity from god to the sinful in the afterlife so long as they believe and want it.