Interpreting the Book of Mormon

[Bill the Cat]

I thought LDSTrue was joking earlier about this, I think he's talking about the discovery of previously uncontacted tribes in Brazil.

But I don't see how the BOM is any whackier than a book that contains talking snakes and donkeys.

From the guy who believes in Thor and Odin? Is YOUR religious book printed by Marvel Comics?

[Texatru]

From the guy who believes in Thor and Odin? Is YOUR religious book printed by Marvel Comics?

:-) I believe in them only as mythical figures passed down by my ancestors.

But there are Asatru who do believe in Thor and Odin, and no it didn't originate with Marvel Comics :-) It actually predates Christianity. Asatru is the only 'religion' of which I'm aware that does not require faith in absurd things like talking snakes (either in the garden or at Ragnarok).

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Okay, I will pretend Trout and Bill the Cat haven't responded and pretend to give you the attention you deserve.

There's just this respectful thing called dialogue. I make a statement and then you respond and then I respond to your response, etc. That's the way it works.

You are irritatingly insistent in your demands that we pretend Jesus didn’t rise, unrapp Himself and walk out of the tomb.

I am asking you to assume a hypothetical.

It seems you are fond of make believe and you are obviously very practiced at pretend so…

Actually, I'm very much into studying the ramifications of what I believe. I won't hesitate to tell you what it means if Jesus didn't rise from the dead because I am convinced he did rise and I am convinced I can show it.

Here's a suggestion, I have said; “Had Jesus not been resurrected He would not have appeared on this continent. Had Jesus not been resurrected He would not have appeared along with His Father to Joseph Smith Jr….” which should give you license to pretend I answered in the affirmative.

Alright.

Inasmuch as you are serious about playing around and pretending Jesus wasn’t resurrected why don’t you just go ahead and pretend I answered your question with a resounding “yes” and begin making your pretend point.

Get on with it… or get off it!!!

Alright. Here it is. You've already admitted if that was the case, there is no Mormon gospel. Now if that was the case, then would it not mean your burning in the bosom was a false experience and would have to be explained another way?

P.S. Have you heard about the discovery of the potential Lamanites and/or Nephites in Brazil? You can pretend they're the remaining Lamanites and consider taking the Book of Mormon seriously.

Already posted in that thread. It's amazing how you all will grasp at any straw.

[LDSTrue]

But you have given me no reason to think that the BoM is anything more than fiction.

Okay Lost Sheep Hunter, let’s put your premise to the test on Trout. You said I could use it so hear goes…

Hey Trout:

I may not have the solid, tangible, ready to be handled by you proof you demand regarding the Book of Mormon but don’t be dismayed. Lost Sheep Hunter and I have worked together and have come up with we think is a sure fire way to prove it without you putting your fingerprints anything.

Originally posted by LDSTrue: You state if He didn’t rise then the Book of Mormon wouldn’t be true… We all know He did rise so according to your own scenario above the Book of Mormon is proven to be true with the New Testament!

Originally posted by Los Sheep Hunter: After all, the BOM could not be true if Christ had not risen from the dead. Correct?

Originally posted by LDSTrue: According to your example if He didn’t rise it’s false, ergo, if He did rise (and He did) it’s true!

I appreciate your scenario proving the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon as Christ has risen! Had He not risen the New Testament would be in doubt right along with the Book of Mormon.

If the first witness is doubtful the second witness has a slim chance. It's good we have a second witness of Jesus and His resurrection! The first proves the second and the second substantiates the first. It's working out exactly the way He (Jesus) planed it!

There, you do see how what can seem to be a complicated process requiring stuff and fingerprints can be made easy by applying simple logic and sound reasoning… don’t you?

I can’t take all the credit as Lost Sheep Hunter provided the premise and gets 50% of the recognition. I just figured out how best to apply his principle.

We are both responsible for the evidence insuring both the New Testament and Book of Mormon are true records and go hand in hand (second witness) due to the reality that Jesus did rise and was in fact resurrected.

Now tell the truth Trout… is it working… please don’t say our joint efforts are in vain!!!

[LDSTrue]

Originally posted by Bill the Cat
From the guy who believes in Thor and Odin? Is YOUR religious book printed by Marvel Comics?

:-) I believe in them only as mythical figures passed down by my ancestors.

But there are Asatru who do believe in Thor and Odin, and no it didn't originate with Marvel Comics :-) It actually predates Christianity. Asatru is the only 'religion' of which I'm aware that does not require faith in absurd things like talking snakes (either in the garden or at Ragnarok).

Texatru demonstrates why, and has made himself a useful example of one of the most important reasons Jesus brought forth the Book of Mormon… to be used as a second witness of His resurrection. Both witnesses are separate yet conjoined.

Texatru must not only deny the New Testament record of Jesus’ resurrection but the Book of Mormon record of His resurrection as well; both records (as apparently he has)!

At judgment he will have to confess that yes, he was aware of both records and yes they were translated and written in simple easy to understand English and yet he rejected and denied both sure witnesses of His resurrection.

Texatru doesn’t believe the Old Testament – STRIKE ONE – Tedatru doesn’t believe in the New Testament – STRIKE TWO – Texatru doesn’t believe in the Book of Mormon – STRIKE THREE… YOU’RE OUT!!!

[Texatru]

At judgment he will have to confess that yes, he was aware of both records and yes they were translated and written in simple easy to understand English and yet he rejected and denied both sure witnesses of His resurrection.

Texatru doesn’t believe the Old Testament – STRIKE ONE – Tedatru doesn’t believe in the New Testament – STRIKE TWO – Texatru doesn’t believe in the Book of Mormon – STRIKE THREE… YOU’RE OUT!!!

I don't know what "sure witnesses" you're talking about, but let's assume that you're correct, and one day I will stand in judgement before some divine creator figure. I can honestly say that I tried to believe in the OT, the NT, and well not so much the BOM but I do consider it be along the same lines as the OT and NT, just with less historical and sociological acceptance. An omniscient and divine creator would know my honesty and earnestness and see that through years of thought, pain and searching that I concluded (with the brain given to me by the creator) that they were ancient superstitious texts mangled into absurdity by contemporary religions.

It seems your divine being rewards gullibility over honesty and earnestness.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

I don't know what "sure witnesses" you're talking about, but let's assume that you're correct, and one day I will stand in judgement before some divine creator figure. I can honestly say that I tried to believe in the OT, the NT, and well not so much the BOM but I do consider it be along the same lines as the OT and NT, just with less historical and sociological acceptance. An omniscient and divine creator would know my honesty and earnestness and see that through years of thought, pain and searching that I concluded (with the brain given to me by the creator) that they were ancient superstitious texts mangled into absurdity by contemporary religions.

It seems your divine being rewards gullibility over honesty and earnestness.

An omniscient creator will also know all the best excuses and know why the best excuses don't work.

[Texatru]

An omniscient creator will also know all the best excuses and know why the best excuses don't work.

Do you mean the excuses for believing, or for not believing? It would seem it would have to be both.

[LDSTrue]

Originally posted by Lost Sheep Hunter;

There's just this respectful thing called dialogue. I make a statement and then you respond and then I respond to your response, etc. That's the way it works.

Swell, the problem arises when you begin your “respectful dialogue” with “ you coward”!

I am asking you to assume a hypothetical.

I’m not opposed to assuming and responding to a rational hypothetical... it's just that yours is…

Actually, I'm very much into studying the ramifications of what I believe. I won't hesitate to tell you what it means if Jesus didn't rise from the dead because I am convinced he did rise and I am convinced I can show it.

Then why all the effort in proposing a certain fact as an irrational hypothetical to no avail?

Alright.

Finally!!! Now we’re getting somewhere!

Alright. Here it is. You've already admitted if that was the case, there is no Mormon gospel. Now if that was the case, then would it not mean your burning in the bosom was a false experience and would have to be explained another way?

Maybe you could say that in your pretend hypothetical world. Or, on the other hand, in reality, I could say the Holy Ghost charged with revealing and confirming truth wouldn’t be guilty of providing a “didn’t our heart burn within us” confirmation of the Book of Mormon if it weren’t true... now would He!

The “Mormon gospel” presented in the Book of Mormon is a sure testimony of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is why in reality the Holy Ghost is in fact providing the “heart burn within us,… while he opened to us the scriptures”.

If there is no “Mormon gospel” there is not a New Testament gospel either as they both testify of Jesus and His resurrection. You deny the one you stand convicted of denying the other and...

Already posted in that thread. It's amazing how you all will grasp at any straw.

Your sense of humor is what is amazingly… lacking! Perhaps Bill the Cat will take time and explain the mechanics of the joke to you. Be ready to reach for the 'Depends'!

[LDSTrue]

I don't know what "sure witnesses" you're talking about, but let's assume that you're correct, and one day I will stand in judgement before some divine creator figure. I can honestly say that I tried to believe

Please explain what it is you mean by “I tried to believe”. What steps did you take? How does one justify trying to believe yet remain in unbelief?

in the OT, the NT, and well not so much the BOM but I do consider it be along the same lines as the OT and NT,

Please explain what it is you mean by “along the same lines” What was your logic?

just with less historical and sociological acceptance. An omniscient and divine creator would know my honesty and earnestness

So you would have us believe that none of your honest and earnest efforts feasting upon the scriptures were rewarded? An omniscient and divine creator knows you intentionally left out a step you were advised and repeatedly admonished to apply... you are left without excuse!

and see that through years of thought, pain and searching that I concluded (with the brain given to me by the creator)

You would have us believe you honestly, earnestly, thoughtfully and painfully searched for the truth with your brain. Just a thought, was half of it tied behind your back those many years of searching painfully, honestly and earnestly?

You are correct when you say our creator granted us the opportunity to have a brain, however, He left it up to you as to the information you will fill it with. If you want to fill it with false thoughts that your creator doesn’t exist... you have the agency.

You have chosen to fill your brain with thoughts that your creator didn’t send His Son and that is where the disconnect is apparent and your consequences begin. Something was obviously disconnected in your brain as it came up shooting brain blanks as far as the truth is concerned!

Something was/is obviously disconnected in your brain as it came up shooting blanks!

that they were ancient superstitious texts mangled into absurdity by contemporary religions.

So you admit your efforts went unrewarded? That is the conclusion your brain rewarded you with after all your honest and earnest efforts in pain, nothing but “blanks”. That is what is to be expected when one relies only on one’s own limited God given abilities... regardless of the capacity of ones God given brain.

Perhaps now you will consider trying honestly, earnestly and painfully with… faith. Be sure your faith receptacle is solidly connected to your brain. Most in your situation have no idea of how to connect or apply faith and receive the rewards granted by God when faith is part of the process.

It seems your divine being rewards gullibility over honesty and earnestness.

On the contrary, God rewards honesty and earnestness with… testimony of a sure knowledge.

Satan has used your gullibility to convince you after your supposed “years of thought, pain and searching” that there is no God. Satan had part in the scriptures you studied and your allowing him to influence you into becoming his toady with your professed “ancient superstitious texts mangled into absurdity by contemporary religions”.

Heb. 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

You claim years of honest, earnest and painful searching with your brain and yet you are left standing up to your neck in the same quagmire with all the non-believers. Your brain has failed you! You are and will be held accountable for researching the truthfulness of scripture preserved and presented by God Himself which has resulted in your ignorant claim... it’s all “ancient superstitious texts”!

It appears a lot of time and effort has been wasted on your part as you obviously lacked the necessary “faith”! If we are to believe you, you have demonstrated the necessary diligence... now try diligence with the addition of … FAITH!!!

Yeah, I believe the same efforts applied in/with faith would produce a different result and leave you standing on His right hand instead of “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me,…”

A do-over of "years of thought, pain and searching" with the addition of faith might just be the ticket needed for your salvation.

[Texatru]

Please explain what it is you mean by “I tried to believe”. What steps did you take? How does one justify trying to believe yet remain in unbelief?

Please explain what it is you mean by “along the same lines” What was your logic?

Let's say someone tells you they rose from the dead. What steps would you take in trying to believe them? Would you even try? Is there proof of the claim? Obviously I'll assume most people trying to tell me this are crazy, but in the case of Christianity we somehow seem to think that we should drop all of our knowledge and assume this is true based purely on the 2nd hand witnesses of 1st century religious fanatics.

So you would have us believe that none of your honest and earnest efforts feasting upon the scriptures were rewarded? An omniscient and divine creator knows you intentionally left out a step you were advised and repeatedly admonished to apply... you are left without excuse!

You would have us believe you honestly, earnestly, thoughtfully and painfully searched for the truth with your brain. Just a thought, was half of it tied behind your back those many years of searching painfully, honestly and earnestly?

I didn't ask YOU to believe that I searched honestly and earnestly. I said that IF an omniscient creator exists, he would know that.

You are correct when you say our creator granted us the opportunity to have a brain, however, He left it up to you as to the information you will fill it with. If you want to fill it with false thoughts that your creator doesn’t exist... you have the agency.

You have chosen to fill your brain with thoughts that your creator didn’t send His Son and that is where the disconnect is apparent and your consequences begin. Something was obviously disconnected in your brain as it came up shooting brain blanks as far as the truth is concerned!

Something was/is obviously disconnected in your brain as it came up shooting blanks!

Really? You're trying to tell me that my brain is disconnected because I don't believe the 2nd hand witness of 1st century religious fanatics? If I don't believe in Islam am I similarly disconnected? Or is it just Christianity?

So you admit your efforts went unrewarded? That is the conclusion your brain rewarded you with after all your honest and earnest efforts in pain, nothing but “blanks”. That is what is to be expected when one relies only on one’s own limited God given abilities... regardless of the capacity of ones God given brain.

Perhaps now you will consider trying honestly, earnestly and painfully with… faith. Be sure your faith receptacle is solidly connected to your brain. Most in your situation have no idea of how to connect or apply faith and receive the rewards granted by God when faith is part of the process.

I didn't say they went unrewarded, I certainly feel rewarded in the eventual discovery of what I do TRULY believe, and IF there is an omniscient, all powerful creator, I feel certain that he would be happy with this discovery.

On the contrary, God rewards honesty and earnestness with… testimony of a sure knowledge.

Satan has used your gullibility to convince you after your supposed “years of thought, pain and searching” that there is no God. Satan had part in the scriptures you studied and your allowing him to influence you into becoming his toady with your professed “ancient superstitious texts mangled into absurdity by contemporary religions”.

Heb. 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

You claim years of honest, earnest and painful searching with your brain and yet you are left standing up to your neck in the same quagmire with all the non-believers. Your brain has failed you! You are and will be held accountable for researching the truthfulness of scripture preserved and presented by God Himself which has resulted in your ignorant claim... it’s all “ancient superstitious texts”!

It appears a lot of time and effort has been wasted on your part as you obviously lacked the necessary “faith”! If we are to believe you, you have demonstrated the necessary diligence... now try diligence with the addition of … FAITH!!!

Yeah, I believe the same efforts applied in/with faith would produce a different result and leave you standing on His right hand instead of “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me,…”

A do-over of "years of thought, pain and searching" with the addition of faith might just be the ticket needed for your salvation.

The latter part of your answer assumes that an all powerful, omniscient creator exists, that he inspired scripture, etc.... I don't share that belief.

[Bill the Cat]

:-) I believe in them only as mythical figures passed down by my ancestors.

But there are Asatru who do believe in Thor and Odin, and no it didn't originate with Marvel Comics :-) It actually predates Christianity. Asatru is the only 'religion' of which I'm aware that does not require faith in absurd things like talking snakes (either in the garden or at Ragnarok).

So would you say you are a theist at all?

[Texatru]

So would you say you are a theist at all?

That's tough because it necessarily involves a definition of God or gods using contemporary terms. I would say that I believe in humans or myths which have been elevated to divinity by my ancestors and that by continuing their beliefs I take part in their divinity. In the ancient sense, I think this would qualify as a theist, but in the contemporary sense, probably not. (probably more like ancestral humanist)

[Bill the Cat]

Then you are not permitted to post in this forum. Sorry. It requires you to believe in a divine power of some sort, and since you do not, you are not allowed to post in theist only areas without prior permission of the moderators of the area.

[Texatru]

Then you are not permitted to post in this forum. Sorry. It requires you to believe in a divine power of some sort, and since you do not, you are not allowed to post in theist only areas without prior permission of the moderators of the area.

I do believe in divine power, its just doesn't seem to be constrained by your concept of divinity.