Evidence and Clear Examples of Factual errors & historical inaccuracies in the Quran.

[barnasha]

By "subsumed" you mean conquered and that by war and that means by sword. Let's look at Islam's early subsuming.

if we are going to take a look at it, shouldn't we look at world history instead of some random blog or article by an anti-islamic blogger as our primary source?

EDIT: (besides, what is the point in looking at it? let's compare the 'subsuming' of christian empires with those of islamic empires... if you want to see brutality)

[smaneck]

Allah creates people and their souls FOR HELL, and he sends them there.

Jesus Christ never said such things,

If the Qur'an says that, then Paul says it all the more:

9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Romans

[smaneck]

By "subsumed" you mean conquered and that by war and that means by sword. Let's look at Islam's early subsuming. from

http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/...ic_crusad.html

635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus

Actually it wasn't simply Muslims. Arab Christians and Muslims fought side by side and the reason Syria was so easily taken is because Syrian Christians were being so badly treated by the Byzantines they didn't put up much of fight. To the contrary the Syrian Navy then turned around and helped the Arabs (again, Christian and Muslim alike) take Egypt.

Now how long to you think the list would become if I listed all the "Christian" conquests?

[And let's not forget Islam's wars of subsuming in spain and eastern europe and the jizrah tax that is still in use in the Islamic empire of today.

I don't know of a single country today which imposes the jizyah. To do so would exempt non-Muslims from military service and no modern state wants to do that.

[smaneck]

if we are going to take a look at it, shouldn't we look at world history instead of some random blog or article by an anti-islamic blogger as our primary source?

EDIT: (besides, what is the point in looking at it? let's compare the 'subsuming' of christian empires with those of islamic empires... if you want to see brutality)

Indeed. The greatest genocide in all of history was carried out by Christians in search of "God, Glory and Gold."

[Dan Zebiri]

Like I already replied you smaneck, Paul no longer held to his former position of what you claim as 'God hardening peoples' heart', IN THE LIGHT what Jesus Christ said in the Johannine corpus, and further confirmed in the Parables of Christ found in Luke-Acts.

Something that you have tried shamefully to avoid and ignore simply because it blows away your baseless theory!

NOBODY can build the doctrine of 'predestination' in a vacuum!

The key teaching in the early church was actually about the Holy Spirit, not just predestination.

The Holy Spirit, being the One Who was - and still IS, the abiding presence of Jesus Christ AFTER He had ascended to the Father, was the prime truth expounded not only by Paul, BUT also in the Johannine corpus AND in the Luke-Acts corpus.

THATs why the John passages are as important as the Pauline ones in grasping the soteriology and pneumatology of the NT (as well as Luke-Acts).

So, Beanfarmer is right, you also cannot ignore the fact that John 3:16 talks about Jesus declaring God's Universal love for ALL peoples - irregardless of their sinful state.

"For God SO LOVED the whole World - that He gave His one and Only son, so that anyone who believes in Him, will not perish BUT have everlasting life.

THIS is true and real love.

NOT the 'bismillahirrahman irraheem' found in your quran!

This 'mercy and compassion' of Allah is so restricted, and pathetically conditional upon their objects, when you read the other quranic verses about the 'love of Allah'!

Allah only loves certain people, who must fulfill certain stipulated CONDITIONS.

And it is explicit in the quran that Allah DOES NOT love other groups of people who do not meet certain conditions!

FURTHERMORE, it is explicitly clear in the quran, that Allah misleads and actively makes people TO GO ASTRAY from everlasting life and salvation.

The orthodox sources of classical islam and the Sunna further CONFIRM this, like I have already quoted previously.

But of course, you being a heterodox 'muslim', a bahai more precisely, you do not follow classical islam nor its established teachers and authoritatve sources of the sunna of muhammad. Like the Mishkat masabih, etc.

Nevertheless, orthodox, classical islam agrees with everything that I have said and written

The Allah of islam and the quran creates people and their souls FOR HELL, and he sends them there.

Jesus Christ never said such things, but declared the very opposite in describing the love and mercy of the true, living God.

Thats found in John 3: 16 :

16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

and John 1 : 12 - 14 :

12 Yet to ALL who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God —

13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The love of God in the quran cannot even BEGIN to hold a candle to the what JESUS taught about the love of God found in the New Testament and in the 4 Gospels!

They are just INComparable.

the 'love of Allah' in islam is a contradictory, restricted and fully conditional love, it is not even a pale shadow of the love of God found in the New Testament, and exemplified in Jesus Christ.

Just check out my previous posts to get all the relevant verses/ayahs from the Bible and the quran to see for yourself.

Dan.

[Dan Zebiri]

Why is it Important to understand and grasp Jesus's teaching about the role of the Holy Spirit (and not just 'predestination' in and of by itself):

Because of what was declared in John 1 : 12 - 14 :

12 Yet to ALL who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God —

13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus Christ already made this very clear in John chapter 3, to the rabbi Nicodemus, who wanted to follow Jesus :

John 3 : 1 - 8

1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler (ie.leader) of the Jews;

2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, " Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into (I)the kingdom of God.

6" That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

According to Jesus, to 'be born of God' is not a physical birthing (like the quran fallaciously accuses in sura 112) at all!

It is to be born of the Holy Spirt, as He Himself expounded so clearly in John 3.

When men and women are born again, to use Jesus's own terminology, it is all due to the work and role of the Holy Spirit, and thats that.

Jesus Himself imparted the Holy Spirit to His disciples in a special act of commissioning :

John 20:21-23 :

21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."

22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

Indeed, the Holy Spirit, was and is the Spirit of Jesus Christ Himself, as proven by verse 21 - 22 above.

Dan.

[Dan Zebiri]

False again smaneck (and propogandist) barnasha , the first centuries of the Christian church was one of BEING persecuted and oppressed by the enemies of the Gospel and Christianity!

Just check your facts FIRST, before spouting more falsehoods!

Go see how wrong your statements are by refering here:

http://www.religionfacts.com/christi...ersecution.htm

The renowned scholar-historian Kenneth Scott Latourette said :

"The tradition of martyrdom has entered deep into the Christian consciousness."

Kenneth Scott Latourette, A History of Christianity, Volume I: Beginnings to 1500, rev. ed. (Prince Press, 2000), p. 81.

The Christians received no teachings or injunctions from,Jesus Christ their Lord, to go atatck the enemies of Christianity.

BUT Mulsims have been enjoined to use force, terror and violence on the non-muslims from both Muhamamd and the quran.

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror, and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures.

(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220)

Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by TERROR (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me: the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind and the line of prophets is closed with me.

Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1062, 1063, 1066, 1067

The Qur'an declares:

Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers! (sura 3:151)

Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment. (sura 8:12-13)

Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
(sura 8:59-60)

And Allah turned back the Unbelievers for (all) their fury: no advantage did they gain; and enough is Allah for the believers in their fight. And Allah is full of Strength, able to enforce His Will. And those of the People of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things. (33:25-27)

It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book from their homes at the first gathering (of the forces). Little did ye think that they would get out: And they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah! But the (Wrath of) Allah came to them from quarters from which they little expected (it), and cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their dwellings by their own hands and the hands of the Believers, take warning, then, O ye with eyes (to see)! (sura 59:2)

That is because they resisted Allah and His Messenger: And if any one resists Allah, verily, Allah is severe in punishment. (sura 59:4)

Of a truth ye are stronger (than they) because of the terror in their hearts, sent by Allah. This is because they are men devoid of understanding. (59:13)

SO, who uses terror, force and violence to spread the religion??!
(..."smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.." MEANS WHAT?? - cut off their necks and heads, cut off their hands..! - commanded by sura 8 : 12-13 above...!)

Islam and the quran does it of course!

It is enshrined in all the verses above, smaneck.

You never find such teaching and injunctions consistently called by the Gospel and/or by Jesus Christ!

The quran is guilty as charged of using and promoting VIOLENCE, FORCE AND Terror to spread the islamic religion.

Dan.

[barnasha]

plenty of people use quran to fight for peace and justice.... maybe they are just better than you at fighting for peace and justice.

maligning the quran doesn't do anything constructive.

of course, you have years of history of posting deconstructive things - so we know you don't care about being constructive.

really, human kind should purge itself of mentalities like yours so we can work towards building a better future, rather than further unraveling it into worse of a mess.

[beanfarmer]

Paul didn't write John 3:16. The Doctrine of Predestination in Christianity is based on Paul's writings.

we were talking about the whole Bible not just what you thought Paul meant with out concidering eph 2;8 where he left it open. we were talking about the whole Bible not just what you thought Paul meant with out concidering eph 2;8 where he left it open.

Sorry, but hadiths can be adduced to prove anything. Let's stick to the Qur'an since that and that alone constitutes scripture as far as Muslims are concerned.

Are you saying the Hadiths are not of Allah? OK, here is a few from the Qu'ran and you will find nothing so adamantly predestination in Paul.

Say: ‘Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our protector’: and on Allah let the Believers put their trust.” S. 9:51

“Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is Allah's; and whether you manifest what is in your minds or hide it, Allah will call you to account according to it; then He will forgive whom He pleases and chastise whom He pleases, and Allah has power over all things.” S. 2:284

“Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.” S. 4:88

...; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter. ” S. 5:40-41

“Whomsoever Allah guides, he is the one who follows the right way; and whomsoever He causes to err, these are the losers. Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell.” S. 7:178-179

I can get much more if you like.

Muhammad did not convert anyone by the sword. The Qur'an is quite clear, "Let there be no compulsion in religion."

While that is a nobel sentiment it was not followed by Muhammad or the rapid exspantion of Islam into spain and eastern europe nor reflected in the jizrah ttax commanded in the Qu'ran and practiced today in most Muslim countries where they persecute folks of other faiths unless they convert to Islam. from
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/...ic_crusad.html

635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus

636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.

637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of al—Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636)

638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.

638—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.

639—642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.

641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.

643—707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.

644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affan is elected third Caliph, who is regarded by many Muslims as gentler than Umar.

644—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.

656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled Muslim soldiers; Ali ibn Abi Talib, son—in—law and cousin to Muhammad, who married the prophet's daughter Fatima through his first wife Khadija, is set up as Caliph.

656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad's wife, leads a rebellion against Ali for not avenging Uthman's assassination. Ali's partisans win.

657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali

661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali's supporters acclaim his son Hasan as next Caliph, but he comes to an agreement with Muawiyyah I and retires to Medina.

661—680 the Caliphate of Muawiyyah I. He founds Umayyid dynasty and moves capital from Medina to Damascus

673—678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire

680 Massacre of Hussein (Muhammad's grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.

691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem, only six decades after Muhammad's death.

705 Abd al—Malik restores Umayyad rule.

710—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.


While that is a nobel sentiment it was not followed by Muhammad or the rapid exspantion of Islam into spain and eastern europe nor reflected in the jizrah ttax commanded in the Qu'ran and practiced today in most Muslim countries where they persecute folks of other faiths unless they convert to Islam. from
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/...ic_crusad.html

635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus

636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.

637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of al—Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636)

638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.

638—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.

639—642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.

641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.

643—707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.

644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affan is elected third Caliph, who is regarded by many Muslims as gentler than Umar.

644—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.

656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled Muslim soldiers; Ali ibn Abi Talib, son—in—law and cousin to Muhammad, who married the prophet's daughter Fatima through his first wife Khadija, is set up as Caliph.

656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad's wife, leads a rebellion against Ali for not avenging Uthman's assassination. Ali's partisans win.

657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali

661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali's supporters acclaim his son Hasan as next Caliph, but he comes to an agreement with Muawiyyah I and retires to Medina.

661—680 the Caliphate of Muawiyyah I. He founds Umayyid dynasty and moves capital from Medina to Damascus

673—678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire

680 Massacre of Hussein (Muhammad's grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.

691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem, only six decades after Muhammad's death.

705 Abd al—Malik restores Umayyad rule.

710—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.

711—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus. This article recounts how Muslims today still grieve over their expulsion 700 years later. They seem to believe that the land belonged to them in the first place.

719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governor

732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance

749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids

756 Foundation of Umayyid amirate in Cordova, Spain, setting up an independent kingdom from Abbasids

762 Foundation of Baghdad

785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova

789 Rise of Idrisid amirs (Muslim Crusaders) in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.

800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty (Muslim Crusaders) in Tunisia

807 Caliph Harun al—Rashid orders the destruction of non—Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem

809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy

813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country

831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy

850 Caliph al—Matawakkil orders the destruction of non—Muslim houses of prayer

855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)

837—901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France

869—883 Revolt of black slaves in Iraq

909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; these Muslim Crusaders occupy Sicily, Sardinia

928—969 Byzantine military revival, they retake old territories, such as Cyprus (964) and Tarsus (969)

937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places

937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked

960 Conversion of Qarakhanid Turks to Islam

966 Anti—Christian riots in Jerusalem

969 Fatimids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Egypt and found Cairo

c. 970 Seljuks enter conquered Islamic territories from the East

973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids

1003 First persecutions by al—Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed

1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al—Hakim (see 937)

1012 Beginning of al—Hakim's oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians

1015 Earthquake in Palestine; the dome of the Dome of the Rock collapses

1031 Collapse of Umayyid Caliphate and establishment of 15 minor independent dynasties throughout Muslim Andalus

1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed

1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (aka Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.

1055 Seljuk Prince Tughrul enters Baghdad, consolidation of the Seljuk Sultanate

1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection

1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia

1071 Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine

1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders)

1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia

1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana

1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies

1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca

1090—1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands

1094 Byzantine emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970

1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099

So it is only after all of the Islamic aggressive invasions that Western Christendom launches its first Crusades.

It could be argued that sometimes the Byzantine and Western European leaders did not behave exemplarily, so a timeline on that subject could be developed. And sometimes the Muslims behaved exemplarily. Both are true. However, the goal of this timeline is to balance out the picture more clearly.

And whoso maketh efforts for us, in our ways will we guide them: for
God is assuredly with those who do righeous deeds.

(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 29 - The Spider)

“If it has been thy Lord’s Will,
They would all have believed,
All who are on earth!
Wilt thou then compel mankind,
Against their will to believe!” 10:99

The first can be explained by Allah rewarding those who he predestined to good works. The 2nd is problematic in that it definitely favors free will though not as much as the who so ever passages in the Bible but it contradicts some of the verses above from the Qu'ran, particurelly 4 ;88.

[beanfarmer]

if we are going to take a look at it, shouldn't we look at world history instead of some random blog or article by an anti-islamic blogger as our primary source?

EDIT: (besides, what is the point in looking at it? let's compare the 'subsuming' of christian empires with those of islamic empires... if you want to see brutality)

let's do that. History is history no matter where you get it or would you prefer an equally biased Muslim source?

[smaneck]

Yes, I am well aware that John's emphasis is very different from Paul's. It doesn't change the fact that Paul taught a belief in predestination every bit as implacable as anything found in Islam or the Qur'an.

[smaneck]

Like I already replied you smaneck, Paul no longer held to his former position of what you claim as 'God hardening peoples' heart'

Nice try, Dan, but Romans was written *after* Paul became a Christian no before.

,

IN THE LIGHT what Jesus Christ said in the Johannine corpus, and further confirmed in the Parables of Christ found in Luke-Acts.

Wrong again. Paul's epistle to the Romans is written before either Luke or John's gospel.

NOBODY can build the doctrine of 'predestination' in a vacuum!

Not suggesting they did. But the context was the OT teachings regarding hardening the heart of Pharoah and "Isaac I loved, but Essau I hated."

The key teaching in the early church was actually about the Holy Spirit, not just predestination.

I'm not suggesting that the Holy Spirit is not the conduit through which grace is received by those predestined to be saved, that doesn't not change the fact that Paul is saying there are those predestined *not* to receive that grace through the Holy Spirit.

Allah only loves certain people, who must fulfill certain stipulated CONDITIONS.

As opposed to God hating Esau before he had done anything whatsoever as Paul attests? (Romans 9:13)

The orthodox sources of classical islam and the Sunna further CONFIRM this, like I have already quoted previously.

This question of predestination was a debate that raged in the Islamic world for centuries. In the end the Asharites, who believed in predestination, came to dominate in Sunni Islam whereas the Mutazalites, who emphasized free will, came to dominate amongst the Shi'ites.
The same debate was occurred within Christianity, with Catholics tending to emphasize free will while the Protestant Reformers insisted on predestination.

But of course, you being a heterodox 'muslim', a bahai more precisely, you do not follow classical islam nor its established teachers and authoritatve sources of the sunna of muhammad. Like the Mishkat masabih, etc.

The Mutazalite school is actually older than the Asharite school. Both are 'classical.'

Nevertheless, orthodox, classical islam agrees with everything that I have said and written

The Allah of islam and the quran creates people and their souls FOR HELL, and he sends them there.

Jesus Christ never said such things, but declared the very opposite in describing the love and mercy of the true, living God.[/QUOTE]

I guess that would depend on whether or not you ascibe the Bible to Jesus:

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

Romans 9:

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

[smaneck]

we were talking about the whole Bible not just what you thought Paul meant with out concidering eph 2;8 where he left it open.

I don't believe he did. You apparently have some grammatical trick which makes you think he might of, but I don't find your argument at all persuasive.

Are you saying the Hadiths are not of Allah?

Uh, no. Only the hadith al-qudsi even claim to be from Allah and they are few in number. Hadiths are reports of what people claim the saw the Prophet say or do, handed down orally through centuries before anyone wrote them down. In other words, they constitute hearsay.

OK, here is a few from the Qu'ran and you will find nothing so adamantly predestination in Paul.

Say: ‘Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our protector’: and on Allah let the Believers put their trust.” S. 9:51

And this is different from Jesus saying, "Consider the lillies of the field . . ."

“Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is Allah's; and whether you manifest what is in your minds or hide it, Allah will call you to account according to it; then He will forgive whom He pleases and chastise whom He pleases, and Allah has power over all things.” S. 2:284

"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." (Romans 9:18)

“Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.” S. 4:88

"The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go." (Exodus 4:21, NIV)

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." (Act. 4:27-28, NASB)

I can get much more if you like.

As can I. ;-}

While that is a nobel sentiment it was not followed by Muhammad or the rapid exspantion of Islam into spain and eastern europe nor reflected in the jizrah ttax commanded in the Qu'ran and practiced today in most Muslim countries

Really? Name a Muslim country which still collects the jizrah?

[barnasha]

Nice try, Dan, but Romans was written *after* Paul became a Christian no before.

you mean "became a Christian" according to the Christians... since Paul did not 'convert' to a new religion... but I guess I'm splitting hairs....

Uh, no. Only the hadith al-qudsi even claim to be from Allah and they are few in number. Hadiths are reports of what people claim the saw the Prophet say or do, handed down orally through centuries before anyone wrote them down. In other words, they constitute hearsay.

The meaning of the Arabic word 'hadeeth' means just that.

[smaneck]

you mean "became a Christian" according to the Christians... since Paul did not 'convert' to a new religion... but I guess I'm splitting hairs.....

Convert means to change direction. That's pretty well describes what Paul did on the road to Damascus.