Evidence and Clear Examples of Factual errors & historical inaccuracies in the Quran.

[Dan Zebiri]

Barnasha and son of abu talib,

That is just your re-interpretation of the contradicting verses in the Quran!

To cover up for such real discrepencies and cracks of the quran.

We can equally and validly hold such opposite meanings that show and conclusively prove that the quran genuinely does contradict itself IN MANY PLACES, thus rendering it a useless source as any guide to mankind.

Of course, that does completely nullifies the quran as originating from God himself, Who is the source of pure truth.

Dan.

[Dan Zebiri]

Again, barnasha fails to understand the idea of Messiah that Jesus Himself conveyed and taught to his own 12 disciples.

THIS is what the actual background is :

Matthew 16 : 13 -


13 Now when Jesus came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of man is?

14 And they said, Some say John the Baptist; some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20 Then charged he the disciples that they should tell no man that he was the Christ.

WHY ON EARTH did Jesus CHARGE his disciples to NOT TELL others that He was indeed the Christ, and has already come into the world!

Was Jesus NOT the Christ?? NO! Of COURSE HE WAS!

Then WHY?

Read on in Matthew 16 so you will know the context, muslims & barnasha!

Verse 21 : From that time Jesus began to show unto his disciples, that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised up.

22 And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall never be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling-block unto me: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

SO, Matthew 16: 21 - 24 makes it CRYSTAL CLEAR, WHY Jesus forbade His followers to tell the other Jews around them, that THE MESSIAH HAS ALREADY COME into the World!

Jesus Coming 2,000 years ago, was in HIS OWN WORDS "[I]..that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things AT THE HANDS OF the elders and chief priests and scribes, [B]AND BE KILLED[B], and [U]the third day be raised up ! .

A dying and KILLED Messiah was NOT WHAT THE JEWS OF JESUS DAY was expecting!

BUT THAT WAS EXACTLY WHAT Jesus Christ had come to do, 2,000 years ago! This would never fit into the expectations of the Jews of His day!

WHY? Because these Jews were expecting AND anticipating a 'Messiah that was different' - one who would restore Israel BACK, over the domination and conquest of the ROMAN POWER that colonised Israel BACK THEN!

Even this misunderstanding was prevailing in some of His disciples after Jesus' Resurrection! :-

Acts 1 : 6 - 8 :

6 They therefore, when they were come together, asked him, saying, Lord, dost thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority.

So, its clearly not the earthly Kingdom, that Jesus had come to establish. Instead He reminded His followers to get power from the Holy Spirit of God - the Comforter-Paraclete - Who would empower them to WITNESS FOR JESUS CHRIST to the very ends of the Earth!

8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

It was a spiritual, universal Kingdom that Christ had come to establish, with followers from ALL OVER THE WORLD, not only from the Jews!

The Jews of Jesus' day would not appreciate that perspective at all, for they were waiting for a 'Kingly Messiah' that would OVERTHROW the colonial power of that day - the Roman Empire.

But Jesus Empire & Kingdom was an eternal and spiritual one!

Dan.

[smaneck]

We can equally and validly hold such opposite meanings that show and conclusively prove that the quran genuinely does contradict itself IN MANY PLACES, thus rendering it a useless source as any guide to mankind.

Of course, that does completely nullifies the quran as originating from God himself, Who is the source of pure truth.

Dan.

So if a scripture can be shown to have any contradictions it cannot be divinely inspired? Oh, good. I'm going to have some fun finding contradictions in the Bible. We can start out with the contradictory genealogies found in Matthew and Luke. They don't even agree as whose Joseph's father was. But I'm sure you will explain these away by "reinterpreting" as you are accusing Barmasha and Abu Talib of doing. Of course, Narnian has a better solution, just deny their inspiration and insist they are merely human documents. Is that your position Dan? If not, kindly tell me why Matthew has Jesus give the wrong Zachariah being killed in the Temple? Why does it contradict II Chronicles? Also, why does Paul say in Romans 1:3 that Jesus "was born of the seed of David" using the Greek word 'sperma' if Jesus was born of a virgin? Sperm only comes from the male line, after all.

Shall we go on? I have a whole list of these if you want to pursue this line? However you explain these contradictions in the Bible, feel free to apply it to the Qur'an. I'm sure it will work just fine.

[smaneck]

The Jews of Jesus' day would not appreciate that perspective at all, for they were waiting for a 'Kingly Messiah' that would OVERTHROW the colonial power of that day - the Roman Empire.

Just as Christians insist Christ will do when He returns and they rejected Those who came subsequently as a result.

[barnasha]

Barnasha and son of abu talib,

That is just your re-interpretation of the contradicting verses in the Quran!

To cover up for such real discrepencies and cracks of the quran.

Ah, the vague allusion to the "discrepancies" and "cracks"... much easier than making a good point.

...They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God." They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but


( the likeness of him was put on another man ...

OR

but it only seemed to them [as if it had been] so;)

"NOPE, God raised [Jesus] up unto Himself (i.e. in heaven)"

(Quran)


see the words in bold, above? they represent two translations of the same words of the Quran.

this alone shows how vague and deep the language is.

so, before you assume you know what the quran says, do your research,because it doesn't say what you claim it says!

In fact the language is so dense and rich here it could be interpreted in a vast amount of ways, as is shown in the example above...


Go ahead, enemy of God, continue to try to disprove a verse with such beautiful meaning as being from Above. Do it for yourself, don't think about God or humanity. Do whatever is best for YOU., only think about YOU and how great YOU should be. Forget serving God, serve your own interests!



But you should know, whatever time you spend here on earth in such vain political ends, is time you could have spent enjoying your life.

And its time you won't get back on the last day.

[barnasha]

So wait, you've spoken to Jesus and Paul in person about what they meant?

If not, then you have quite obviously relied on something outside the authors to interpret their words.

Does my brain count?

You'll have to explain how so. "Truth" is a concept. It is not alive. We may say things are "true" or that someone speaks "the truth," but there always has to be that intermediate agency offering us the definition.

I assume you don't consider yourself powerless to offer definitions. I certainly don't.

Of course, I never suggested such a thing. However, we cannot understand the universe or the sunshine until we stop, define them, and study them. We can either define and study them ourselves based on what we personally feel is best, or we can rely on an outside source who we feel is more knowledgeable, wise, etc to teach us about those things.

Why study anything at all? Just rely on your "outside source" and be done with it.

Anyway, who does your outside source rely on?

Somewhere along the line, SOMEONE has to do some good old-fashioned ... "thinking".

I am one of those poor souls who does the tough work for his or her self.

You'll have to explain the difference, and how you think "believing in Jesus" is ideological rather than personal and/or spiritual.

Someone whose belief in Jesus consists of talking about Jesus all day but doing little to learn from and enact his teachings, has an "ideological" belief in the man.

Someone who takes the teachings of Jesus to heart and applies them in his or her life, or trusts in the teachings of Jesus as sound, they have a "personal" and "spiritual" connection with him and his teachings.

Surely you can consider the difference.

It works for Jesus as it does anyone else.

If my mom had faith that I would do well in school, she had to have faith IN something. She either had to have faith in me as a person (i.e. that I am a responsible, intelligent, generally good boy), or perhaps in God to whom she might pray that I will do well (because she believes He will hear her prayers and answer them, because He is omniscient, omnipotent, etc). So you see, in any example you offer, the faith has to be in something. If you simply say "I have faith" without defining what your faith is IN, then at best your faith is useless and at worst it's completely meaningless.

Youre playing with words, which I am guilty of too I'm sure, but lets go back to the point, that 'having faith in' and 'believing in' (can) mean the same thing, and in the greek bible the same word is used.

The verbs "have faith" and "believe" have a lot of different connotations in English and this really confuses things.

Do you have faith in yourself? I believe you do.

What is unclear is what specific "dogma" you think is so undesirable, and why? Please, be specific.

If you refer to my post, you can see that I never referred to any specific dogma, what I said was that Paul and Jesus did not teach a shallow one.

So when Jesus told us to believe in Him, what is it you think He meant?

Loosely speaking, the same thing I would mean if I told you something in sincerity.

Belief is trust, isn't it?

Trust that what I am saying is true, believe in me, because what I say and do is true.

What do you think he meant?

What confuses me is where you think I DID advocate a cheap shallow faith. No where did I do so.

I don't recall ever thinking you did.. What gave you that impression?

I don't know...you have thus far capitalized both "God" and "Jesus" in this dialogue, have you not? Have you been influenced by the Roman-Christian English interpretations of the Greek language?

God and Jesus are proper nouns, so they should be capitalized.

However, Jesus does not merely talk there in terms of the negative ("dishonor") but the positive ("honor"). He claims that the same honor that is due to the Father is due to Him. Those He was speaking to honored the Father at the level of worship as God. Thus, He was asking for that same level of worship.

Joshua the Christ referred to God as our Father, but you seem to differentiate between the two. I assume that is due to your belief system which stems from the Roman Christianity, Nicean Trinitarianism, etc.

Our master did not refer to two different things. a Father/Son analogy is very useful, and it was used by our lord quite frequently.

It's really a moot point because the Bible repeatedly refers to God as the Savior. Unless we have two Saviors, then the obvious conclusion must be drawn.

The key word is, unless. The word savior can be applied to more than one thing.

"A God?" Meaning there is more than one?

I meant "a god".

Sure, I basically agree with you there. I don't think Jesus and the Father are the same Person.

I don't think of "the father" as a person, I think of a father as a father.

Something Jesus did, if you look at his very clear language. he was not inventing some new system of referring to divinity, he was using very simple examples even a child can understand. I guess no matter what he taught, someone would confuse it along the way.

I think of Jesus or a father as persons just as i think of you as a person.

if jesus was a father he'd still be the same person.

Do you believe that "Messiah" and "Christ" are the same thing (one Hebrew, one Greek)? John 1:41

Moshiach is the hebrew term, and I don't see why not

I don't know if they had "nuthouses" in ancient Israel, my friend. Generally people considered heretics were executed...which is exactly what happened to Jesus. If anyone doubts what His "heresy" was, John 10:33 makes it pretty clear.

yes, but jesus was executed for gaining a huge following and making the fancy pants religious jews look like fools (which they did for themselves,really - any man of greatness always makes a fool stand out. Read about socrates, its the same thing). my point is he never would have gotten anywhere near that far if he had a complete lack of understanding of hebrew theology and culture.

the jews are right to the baffled by modern christians in the same way people would have been baffled by jesus, if he showed a total lack of understanding of the torah.

on the contrary, jesus schooled even the high priests on the torah.

he made a ton of SENSE and his teachings were very simple, direct, powerful, and exhibited a very clear understanding of 'the torah', the teaching, "the law".


that why he got popular

I'd love to go through them with you, though that would send us on a very huge tangent. Just so you know, He did not say "Do not call Me good," He asked "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God" Matthew 19:17
Yet oddly, Jesus calls Himself "good" in John 10:11...hmmm....

if you are thinking along those lines, you did not understand what Jesus meant when someone praised him but he redirected the praise to the Almighty which he served.

[Dan Zebiri]

To be brutally honest with you, barney, I really don't quite care what sura 4/157 claims regarding Jesus Christ!

If there is even a hint of so-called 'rich vagueness' in it, I -and all the Bible-believing & born-again Christians could truly care less about it, and you can keep your pointless obscurantism to yourself & your Muslim friends.

Because it does not affect our afterlife nor our eternal salvation one single BIT!

Keep your 'vagueness' to yourself, because we Christians already know what really happened to Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago when He walked this Earth. For one thing, JESUS NEVER PREACHED OR TAUGHT ISLAM in any way! You muslims are making that claim - YOU GO and prove it with truly convincing FACTS!

Jesus made clear statements about his end on this earth when He was here the first time round, 2,000 years past.

A sample can be taken from Matthew chapter 16:

Read on in Matthew 16 so you will know the context, muslims & barnasha!

Verse 21 : From that time Jesus began to show unto his disciples, that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised up.

22 And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall never be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling-block unto me: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.

You Muslims are just like Peter, the follower of Christ.

He tried to prevent Jesus Christ from going to Jerusalem to be arrested and killed (executed) by his enemies in a violent fashion.

Jesus REBUKED AND SCOLDED Peter harshly - even calling him SATAN! For trying to block and obstruct the violent execution of Christ Jesus, 2,000 years ago.

Today, Muslims stand in the same line of rebuke and harsh words of Jesus Christ; by your continual insistence & denial and rejection of Jesus Christ's violent death by human execution

Dan.


,

Ah, the vague allusion to the "discrepancies" and "cracks"... much easier than making a good point.

...They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God." They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but


( the likeness of him was put on another man ...

OR

but it only seemed to them [as if it had been] so;)

"NOPE, God raised [Jesus] up unto Himself (i.e. in heaven)"

(Quran)


see the words in bold, above? they represent two translations of the same words of the Quran.

this alone shows how vague and deep the language is.

so, before you assume you know what the quran says, do your research,because it doesn't say what you claim it says!

In fact the language is so dense and rich here it could be interpreted in a vast amount of ways, as is shown in the example above...


Go ahead, enemy of God, continue to try to disprove a verse with such beautiful meaning as being from Above. Do it for yourself, don't think about God or humanity. Do whatever is best for YOU., only think about YOU and how great YOU should be. Forget serving God, serve your own interests!



But you should know, whatever time you spend here on earth in such vain political ends, is time you could have spent enjoying your life.

And its time you won't get back on the last day.

[Ibn Abu Talib]

Barnasha and son of abu talib,

That is just your re-interpretation of the contradicting verses in the Quran!

To cover up for such real discrepencies and cracks of the quran.

We can equally and validly hold such opposite meanings that show and conclusively prove that the quran genuinely does contradict itself IN MANY PLACES, thus rendering it a useless source as any guide to mankind.

Of course, that does completely nullifies the quran as originating from God himself, Who is the source of pure truth.

Dan.

In other words, the Quran is wrong because Dan does not understand it. What fun!

[barnasha]

To be brutally honest with you, barney, I really don't quite care what sura 4/157 claims regarding Jesus Christ!

interesting admission...

If there is even a hint of so-called 'rich vagueness' in it, I -and all the Bible-believing & born-again Christians could truly care less about it, and you can keep your pointless obscurantism to yourself & your Muslim friends.

your beliefs have little to do with the text itself and what it says, something you've admitted to not actually caring about.


funny how the truth comes out...

it doesn't matter what the Quran says, it's just wrong, because.... I'm a bible believing christian, and that thing called "islam" which we don't care to actually understand is evil

so let's go find ways to attack it and malign it and make it look bad out of insecurity in our faith


if you don't doubt anything, you won't seek anything

if you don't seek anything you won't find anything

if you don't find anything you have nothing


insecurity leads you to demonize others in hopes that you arent the demon yourself

but in fact that leads you to be in danger of become the very demon you don't want to be.


SATAN is a hebrew word that means "accuser" or "adversary"....... be careful you don't be influenced by that attitude.

be a helper to mankind and serve God by helping your brother... the best way you can do that is to try to live a pure life and do what is right.

you won't win any converts by insulting them

you won't be on the right path without having a respectable character in which you deal with others in an incredibly modest and humble way.

[Dan Zebiri]

Its extremely funny how some people like son of abu talib likes to put words and falsehoods into my mouth, out of sheer desperation...!

I understand the Quran quite well, I have already checked my understanding with shaikhs and learned ulemas, so you can take your nonsensical accusation & red herrings elsewhere...

Dan.

In other words, the Quran is wrong because Dan does not understand it. What fun!

[Dan Zebiri]

Barnasha,

I understand Islam only too well, and very well! Unlike you, that has proven to consistently subscribe to blatant and gross misinterpretations of what Jesus Christ really taught.

I have no insecurity in myself, or due to islam in any way!

But, the misrepresentations that Islam, the quran and even muslims naively make about the real Jesus Christ are too blatantly gross and call for immediate redress and factual corrections in line with the real truth.

You yourself are guilty of huge amounts of misinterpretations and misrepresentations of the Gospel of Christ Jesus and have been corrected numerous times already!

Dan.

[Ibn Abu Talib]

Its extremely funny how some people like son of abu talib likes to put words and falsehoods into my mouth, out of sheer desperation...!

There's no need for me to put falsehood in your mouth since you are already doing a good job at being mendacious.

I understand the Quran quite well, I have already checked my understanding with shaikhs and learned ulemas, so you can take your nonsensical accusation & red herrings elsewhere..

Find one Shaykh that disagrees with my defense of the verses you put up earlier.

[smaneck]

I understand the Quran quite well, I have already checked my understanding with shaikhs and learned ulemas, so you can take your nonsensical accusation & red herrings elsewhere...

Dan.

Oh yeah? What shaykhs and 'ulama have you consulted with? Obviously they didn't teach you much or you would know that saying "learned ulemas" is redundant. So far as I can tell you've only consulted Christian anti-Islamic websites.

[Dan Zebiri]

Why should I satisfy both of your closed minds?

Even if I told you their names you have already decided a priori to reject them!

You 2 are islamophiles and I would even dare say that barnasha is a muslim - at least a 'closet' one!

And both of you are propogandizing / dawagandizing islam and its anti-christian polemics over here, nothing else!

Dan.

[Dan Zebiri]

Sue, you got your time-frame and perspective about this all WRONG, once again!

Christians who await for Jesus SECOND Coming NOT at His first coming, will see Him come as the judge and King AS HE HIMSELF SAID HE WOULD.

A Jesus' FIRST Coming, He came as the redeeming Saviour of he world, at His second coming, He comes to judge and to set all the wrong things right for eternity, including killing and destroying the Antichrist once and for all.

He does not come as a failed prophet, to finish up his job that he did not complete the first time round! Like how musims wrongly presume!

Matthew 24:30 (Whole Chapter) :-

"And then [Matt 24:3; Rev 1:7] the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see [Dan 7:13; Matt 16:27; 24:3, 37, 39] the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 (Whole Chapter) :-

Jesus said to him, " [Matt 26:25] You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see [Ps 110:1; Mark 14:62] THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and [Dan 7:13; Matt 16:27] COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

THATS HOW, Jesus Christ, the Son of Man AND the ONLY Son of God, will be returning at the end of the ages - AS A KING AND A JUDGE, not as some prophet that did not complete his task the first time.

And He will judge you, Sue, Barnasha and all the other muslims here who rejected Him as Savior and Lord! If you have not received Jesus Christ as the True Messiah - as the Saviour, Redeemer of mankind, and the Lord of Life, you will find yourself forever consigned to the eternal fires of HELL! SO BE VERY careful, all of you!

Dan.

Just as Christians insist Christ will do when He returns and they rejected Those who came subsequently as a result.