Evidence and Clear Examples of Factual errors & historical inaccuracies in the Quran.

[smaneck]

The Biblical epochs of creation are in harmony with what science tells us.

On the contrary. The Biblical account has the earth created before the sun and the stars!

It goes without saying that bahian scripture offers absolutely nothing regarding creation. They are not even a blip on the radar for any serious scholar.

No serious scholar takes creation myths literally.

As already stated. Any grade-schooler could compose bahian scripture.

[/QUOTE]

In that case, you haven't started pre-school yet.

[Bowman]

On the contrary. The Biblical account has the earth created before the sun and the stars!

No.

Not in Hebrew and not in English.

Our sun was created before 'Day 1' as stated in Genesis 1.

No serious scholar takes creation myths literally.

The Holy Bible is not myth.

Bahian 'scripture', is, however, pure myth.

In that case, you haven't started pre-school yet.

And you hold a doctorate degree?

No way...

[smaneck]

Our sun was created before 'Day 1' as stated in Genesis 1

Sorry, but what Genesis 1 says is that the light, not the sun was created on the first day. What Genesis describes is that after the light (not the sun is created) God separates the water of the seas from the water of heavens, the heavens being depicted as water in the sky being held up by pillars (firmaments). The assumption here is that the earth is flat and covered by something like a dome.
Then the seas are separated from dry land. The comes forward the plant life on the Third Day. It is not until the Fourth Day that sun, moon and stars are created:

1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

(King James Bible, Genesis)


The Biblical story is a lot of things, but a scientific description of the correct order of creation, it is not!

[Bowman]

Sorry, but what Genesis 1 says is that the light, not the sun was created on the first day. What Genesis describes is that after the light (not the sun is created) God separates the water of the seas from the water of heavens, the heavens being depicted as water in the sky being held up by pillars (firmaments). The assumption here is that the earth is flat and covered by something like a dome.
Then the seas are separated from dry land. The comes forward the plant life on the Third Day. It is not until the Fourth Day that sun, moon and stars are created:

1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

(King James Bible, Genesis)


The Biblical story is a lot of things, but a scientific description of the correct order of creation, it is not!

Let’s help you out again, sister, as you seem bent on propagating ignorance.

Your first task is to actually define what you are even discussing.


Gen 1.1 In the beginning7225 God430 created1254 (853) the heaven8064 and the earth.776


H1254
בּרא
bârâ'
baw-raw'
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

Observe that “bara” means to create something anew…i.e. for the first time…





Observe the creation verb used for “light” the very first time in Genesis…



Gen 1.3 And God430 said,559 Let there be1961 light:216 and there was1961 light.216



H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.



The definition tells us a completely different event.

Light was not created…..as it already existed!

The Sun’s light had already been created previous to this passage.

Had you paid attention to what you posted, then you would have been cognizant of the alternation of day and night…of which, can only occur if the earth is already rotating on its axis about the (already) created sun.

Even today’s grade schoolers can understand this much…

[smaneck]

Gen 1.1 In the beginning7225 God430 created1254 (853) the heaven8064 and the earth.776

Sorry, but that is an introduction to the entire section. It then proceeds to describe the seven days involved in the creation of heaven and earth.

The Sun’s light had already been created previous to this passage.

Sorry, there is no mention of sun there.

Had you paid attention to what you posted, then you would have been cognizant of the alternation of day and night…of which, can only occur if the earth is already rotating on its axis about the (already) created sun.

I hate to break it to you but the Hebrew people knew nothing about the earth rotating on it axis. I was aware that it talked about the morning and the evening of the various days. That it does so before mentioning the creation of the sun itself is just part of the contradictions in the Genesis creation account if you insist on taking it literally.

Even today’s grade schoolers can understand this much…

Today's grade schoolers definitely know more about the earth's rotation than did the writers of Genesis.

[Bowman]

Sorry, but that is an introduction to the entire section. It then proceeds to describe the seven days involved in the creation of heaven and earth.

Even each 'Day' ends with the alternation proclamation of both morning and evening - of which, you cannot have without the earth rotating upon its axis about the already created sun.

Sorry, there is no mention of sun there.

Our sun had already been created before time one, sister.

This is expressed in the compound Hebrew term contained in Genesis 1.1.

I hate to break it to you but the Hebrew people knew nothing about the earth rotating on it axis.

Which proves all the more that it was divinely inspired.

I was aware that it talked about the morning and the evening of the various days.

If you were aware that this is repeated over, and over, and over again...why is it that you never could make the connection that the earth was spinning in orbit about its sun?

Come on.....'dr'...

That it does so before mentioning the creation of the sun itself is just part of the contradictions in the Genesis creation account if you insist on taking it literally.

You don't even have a clue as to what Hebrew creation verb was even used when discussing the sun.

As such, you cannot possibly defend your ignorance.

Today's grade schoolers definitely know more about the earth's rotation than did the writers of Genesis.

More evidence against you and more for the divine authorship of the Holy Bible.

The authors of the Koran could not even correct the Genesis account.

Even bahian scripture is unable to correct the Genesis account.

Therefore, the Genesis account must be correct.

[Dan Zebiri]

Not really, smaneck has proven NOTHING of the sort as your claim below.. !

<sigh> I've already proven to you that this was not the case for those not fighting against Islam:

"90. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them)."

Sura 4/90

The verse just before this in sura 4 states quite clearly :

'They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected Faith, and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back from Islam (ie.apostasise), take hold of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.'

Which proves in actual fact that both apostates ie.rejectors & unbelievers of islam, MUST be captured and killed by true muslims, everywhere.

THIS was what happened in Java, Indonesia during the massacre of the Ahmadis there. They were not attacking muslims anytime or anywhere, just congregating among themselves. The faithful muslims of Indonesia converged at that place of worship and lynched, bludgeoned and hacked these muslim sect members to death.

This is in line with sura 4/89 above, for it calls for the killing off of such 'unbelievers' of islam.

No, these ahmadis did not attack or fight the muslims there in any physical or military way.

Nevertheless, they still were brutally and violently hacked to death on the spot they were meeting in!

This proves that smaneck's view is only the splinter, minority view regarding this verse above. And holds NO WATER - and is invalid vis-a-vis the conservative, orthodox position of islam.

I put this ayat above, in the same category as the following verse:

'Fight against those who believe not:

(1) in Allah, nor

(2) in the Last Day, nor

(3) forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and

(4) those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

sura 9/29 (Hilali-khan)

This is the same kind of verse as sura 4/89, dealing with the murtaddin ie. the apostates & quitters of islam.

Sura 9/29 above clearly NEVER speaks of Christians & Jews ie the People of the Book, fighting physically against muslims.

The only 'sin' these people have done against islam is - to NOT believe in the 4 points of islam mentioned there.

That fighting stops ONLY when? When these 'people of the Book' pay the protection money called 'jizyah' submissively.

NO MENTION HERE about these Christians and Jews 'stop figthing islam/muslims' or 'lay down their arms' of warfare...etc, etc!

Because these 'people of the Book' were NOT fighting the muslims militarily in ANY WAY!

The quran states their only 'sin' was that of unbelief in the 4 points mentioned above.

So, what exactly did that 'mob violence' prove?? It proves that the indonesian muslims understood perfectly well and accurately the injunction commanded from the Quran in Sura 4/89, to kill those muslims who have become unbelievers.

The judicial court system in this largest muslim nation supported these muslims' actions by not meting out any severe punishment corresponding to the gruesome murders and brutal massacres committed.

Simply because they most likely do not view this as a crime against islam, and that these muslims were faithfully obeying the injunctions of the quran and islam, as spelled out in sura 4.

However 'intolerant' such a heinous massacre may seem in the eyes of the non-muslim world. That fact that was the reason cited by the apologists for such a court decision used to brush aside the objections to such an inordinately light sentence upon the perpertrators of this evil muslim carnage..

This proves that the quran does indeed call for the punishing of the 'sins of unbelief', making it a thought crime indeed. In fact the quran criminalizes such thought crimes making them punishable by capital penalties - ie.capture, detention and death.

Such is the height of intolerance perpertrated by the quran and islam that prevailed from islam's Day 1 right through this very day and age.






Regardless, the Qur'an is the Qur'an is the Qur'an. What you or Muslims do with it is not my problem.



Only in regards to the issue of the finality of prophethood. Ahmadis still consider themselves Muslims, Baha'is do not. We have the same relationship to Islam and Christianity has to Judaism. We therefore defend its Prophet as well as its scripture. For the rest, we consider much of its laws outdated just as you do in the case of Judaism.

.

Some Muslims believe this and some do not.



No Baha'i has ever been executed for apostasy in Indonesia, Malaysia or Pakistan and these are the most populous Muslim countries in the world.



What does mob violence prove?



Did you happen to hear about that Christian mass murderer in Norway? Granted he will get a stiffer sentence than the six months meted out to those involved in mob violence, but then he did kill a lot more people.

I understand he will get fifteen years.[/QUOTE]

[beanfarmer]

Sue, perhaps you don't recall my discussion of gen 1 earlier where I said of verse 1 "In the beginning God created the heavens (which would include the stars and sun) and the earth". So the sun and stars were created on the first day not the 4th. What do you think heavens referred to empty space? In verse 14 God appointed them to be for signs. Bowman, before you say the Bible doesn't contain myth you should consider what myths are. Myths are something that has deep meaning, something inate that rings true for everyone, something God given, like the dying God myth that I believe God planted in all of us so we would reconize it when it came true in Jesus.

[smaneck]

Even each 'Day' ends with the alternation proclamation of both morning and evening - of which, you cannot have without the earth rotating upon its axis about the already created sun.

A fact which was apparently lost on the authors of Genesis since they didn't have the sun, moon and stars created until the fourth day of creation.

[smaneck]

Sue, perhaps you don't recall my discussion of gen 1 earlier where I said of verse 1 "In the beginning God created the heavens (which would include the stars and sun) and the earth".

Oh, I saw the part where it says God separated the waters with the heaven above and the sea below (which happened day 2, not day 1) , but that passage says nothing about the starts and the sun. You inserted that all on your own. Genesis 1:14 very clearly says those where created on the fourth day:

1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

(King James Bible, Genesis)

Just what do you think are the two great lights that rule the day and night if not the sun and the moon?

So the sun and stars were created on the first day not the 4th.

You can repeat yourself as often as you like and it won't change the fact that the text clearly says they were created on the fourth day.

What do you think heavens referred to empty space?

The authors of Genesis thought the heavens were made up of water.

1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Beanfarmer wrote:

Bowman, before you say the Bible doesn't contain myth you should consider what myths are. Myths are something that has deep meaning, something inate that rings true for everyone, something God given, like the dying God myth that I believe God planted in all of us so we would reconize it when it came true in Jesus.

I would agree with you there. that's why it doesn't make sense to try and analyze them as statements of science. You only end up missing the point.

[Bowman]

Sue, perhaps you don't recall my discussion of gen 1 earlier where I said of verse 1 "In the beginning God created the heavens (which would include the stars and sun) and the earth". So the sun and stars were created on the first day not the 4th. What do you think heavens referred to empty space? In verse 14 God appointed them to be for signs.

Agreed, brother.

Bowman, before you say the Bible doesn't contain myth you should consider what myths are. Myths are something that has deep meaning, something inate that rings true for everyone, something God given, like the dying God myth that I believe God planted in all of us so we would reconize it when it came true in Jesus.

The modern definition of 'myth', and its application, is as a negative...

[smaneck]

Not really, smaneck has proven NOTHING of the sort as your claim below.. !

<sigh> I've already proven to you that this was not the case for those not fighting against Islam:

"90. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them)."

Sura 4/90

The verse just before this in sura 4 states quite clearly :

'They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected Faith, and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back from Islam (ie.apostasise), take hold of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.'

Which proves in actual fact that both apostates ie.rejectors & unbelievers of islam, MUST be captured and killed by true muslims, everywhere.

Are you really this dense that you can't see that the verse that follows indicates that one should not kill them unless they have joined forces with your enemies?

The fact that some Muslims act violently doesn't prove anything. Most of the genocides of history were carried out by those who regarded themselves as Christians.

[Bowman]

A fact which was apparently lost on the authors of Genesis since they didn't have the sun, moon and stars created until the fourth day of creation.

They were not created on 'Day 4', rather they became visible from the vantage point of the earth's surface.

You are falling into the trap of attempting to view the Genesis narrative from the cosmos....when the narrative is actually from the surface of the earth as declared in Gen 1.2.

[smaneck]

Agreed, brother.

The modern definition of 'myth', and its application, is as a negative...

Not in academia. It is mostly evangelicals who use it as a negative.

[smaneck]

They were not created on 'Day 4', rather they became visible from the vantage point of the earth's surface.

Where does the Bible say that?

You are falling into the trap of attempting to view the Genesis narrative from the cosmos....when the narrative is actually from the surface of the earth as declared in Gen 1.2.

Rather you are twisting the text every which way to make it say what you want.