Evidence and Clear Examples of Factual errors & historical inaccuracies in the Quran.

[smaneck]

And both of you are propogandizing / dawagandizing islam and its anti-christian polemics over here, nothing else!

Dan.

Funny, I look at the subject headings on all these threads and it sure doesn't look like we are the ones doing the attacking.

[smaneck]

If you have not received Jesus Christ as the True Messiah - as the Saviour, Redeemer of mankind, and the Lord of Life, you will find yourself forever consigned to the eternal fires of HELL! SO BE VERY careful, all of you![/B]

Dan.

Not a problem. I accept Jesus as the Messiah.

But it is impoverished religion indeed whose only recourse is to threats of hell-fire and damnation.

[Dan Zebiri]

The TRUE Messiah is also the Son of God, the Redeemer who sacrificed His life for the sins of Mankind, and the true Messiah IS ALSO DIVINE in nature.

So, if your 'acceptance of the Messiah' falls short of the above, then too bad, you have fallen far short of the REAL THING.

Matthew 24:30 (Whole Chapter) :-

"And then [Matt 24:3; Rev 1:7] the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see [Dan 7:13; Matt 16:27; 24:3, 37, 39] the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 (Whole Chapter) :-

Jesus said to him:

" [Matt 26:25] : " You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see [Ps 110:1; Mark 14:62] THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and [Dan 7:13; Matt 16:27] COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

THATS HOW, Jesus Christ, the Son of Man AND the ONLY Son of God, will be returning at the end of the ages - AS A KING AND A JUDGE, not as some prophet that did not complete his task the first time.

Yes, and He also has the right to send unbelievers into hell forever!

Dan.

Dan.

[smaneck]

Yes, and He also has the right to send unbelievers into hell forever!
Dan.

Sounds like you and Abu Talib were made for each other.

[barnasha]

Not a problem. I accept Jesus as the Messiah.

But it is impoverished religion indeed whose only recourse is to threats of hell-fire and damnation.

God said in the quran:

6:48 And We send [Our] message-bearers only as heralds of glad tidings and as warners: hence, all who believe and live righteously -no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve;

Wama nursilu almursaleena illa mubashshireena wamunthireena faman amana waaslaha fala khawfun AAalayhim wala hum yahzanoona
وَمَا نُرْسِلُ الْمُرْسَلِينَ إِلاَّ مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ فَمَنْ آمَنَ
وَأَصْلَحَ فَلاَ خَوْفٌ

This verse says that messengers of God only come as warners or bringers of good news...

never condemners.



God has the power to condemn and to judge, anyone else who tries to play His role will also be judged for it.

[RCNicholas]

Does my brain count?

Is your brain infallible? If not, then it's conclusions cannot be entirely reliable, can they? In other words, you admit that your interpretations of the Bible could very well be wrong, righht?

I assume you don't consider yourself powerless to offer definitions. I certainly don't.

I have no idea what that has to do with the fact that truth does not "define itself." It has to be defined by a person.

Why study anything at all? Just rely on your "outside source" and be done with it.

That's not at all my point. We should absolutely study and be sure about what we believe and why. Surely you know that Catholicism (and Christianity in general, really) has produced some of the worlds greatest "thinkers," in theology and in other areas of study. However, we have to approach our studying with certain preconceived notions right off the bat. Either we consider ourselves personally infallible, or we don't. If we consider ourselves personally infallible, then we can know and be sure that whatever we study, and whatever conclusions we come to, we're 100% right all the time. However, if we admit that we are personally fallible, then unfortunately some of our conclusions that we come to on our own could very well be false. Thus, when our conclusion runs up against the conclusion of another source that has been around some 2,000 years and claims to be infallible, it should give us pause to consider whether we might want to re-think our position and submit to a higher, wiser authority.

Anyway, who does your outside source rely on?

Namely, Jesus Christ, who founded Her.

Somewhere along the line, SOMEONE has to do some good old-fashioned ... "thinking".

Of course. Submitting to a certain authority has nothing to do with turning off one's brain. It is quite a rational decision, really.

I am one of those poor souls who does the tough work for his or her self.

Well, again, unless you're claiming personal infallibility then all that tough work has to bear up under the reality that it was done by a fallible source who could be wrong and has only been around to accrue knowledge and wisdom for a few decades, as opposed to centuries. If you're a betting man then maybe that's a risk you're willing to take; I don't know.

Someone whose belief in Jesus consists of talking about Jesus all day but doing little to learn from and enact his teachings, has an "ideological" belief in the man.

Someone who takes the teachings of Jesus to heart and applies them in his or her life, or trusts in the teachings of Jesus as sound, they have a "personal" and "spiritual" connection with him and his teachings.

Surely you can consider the difference.

It works for Jesus as it does anyone else.

I can see the difference, but wher did I suggest that such an "ideological" belief was taught in Scripture or recommended? You went off about this terrible "ideological" belief when I didn't bring anything of the sort up.

Youre playing with words, which I am guilty of too I'm sure, but lets go back to the point, that 'having faith in' and 'believing in' (can) mean the same thing, and in the greek bible the same word is used.

The verbs "have faith" and "believe" have a lot of different connotations in English and this really confuses things.

Do you have faith in yourself? I believe you do.

Ultimately, no I don't have faith in myself. I let myself down all the time. Apart from Christ I can do nothing.

If you refer to my post, you can see that I never referred to any specific dogma, what I said was that Paul and Jesus did not teach a shallow one.

Yes, I'm aware of that...that's why I asked you to specify. Your implication was that my suggestion was contrary to the teachings of Paul and Jesus. However, you hadn't explained why or how.

Loosely speaking, the same thing I would mean if I told you something in sincerity.

Belief is trust, isn't it?

Trust that what I am saying is true, believe in me, because what I say and do is true.

What do you think he meant?

More or less the same thing, although I would be more specific. There are specific things relating to Christ that we are told to believe about Him: that He is the Christ, that He died was buried and rose again for our sins, etc.

I don't recall ever thinking you did.. What gave you that impression?

I initially said, "[The Bible] teaches people to believe solely in Jesus Christ for salvation and to obey apostolic teaching, but you don't seem particularly keen on those commands..."

And you responded, "Neither Jesus nor Paul taught a shallow, dogmatic "belief in Jesus", they taught faith."


Either your comment was mentioned randomly in passing for no particular reason, or it was in response to my comment that we are to "believe solely in Jesus Christ for salvation." Therefore, I made the reasonable assumption that you were referring to the "belief" that I was talking about as being "shallow." If there's another way to make sense out of your comment, please let me know.

Secondly, in light of your comment there, I hope you can see why I'm a bit confused in regards to our discussion about "belief" and "faith." In the above comment you put the two in opposition to each other. Then, when I pointed out that the two are the same Greek word, you said, "oh, yes, I know that. they're the same." So I hope you can see why I'm a bit confused as to where you're coming from.

God and Jesus are proper nouns, so they should be capitalized.

OK...so ergo Father (meaning God) and Son (meaning Jesus) should also be capitalized. There's no slight of hand happening in the translation and/or capitalization there.

Joshua the Christ referred to God as our Father, but you seem to differentiate between the two. I assume that is due to your belief system which stems from the Roman Christianity, Nicean Trinitarianism, etc.

Our master did not refer to two different things. a Father/Son analogy is very useful, and it was used by our lord quite frequently.

Sorry, I seem to be diferentiating between the two what? I'm simply saying that Jesus asked for the same level of honor (worship as God) as the Jews gave to the Father.

The key word is, unless. The word savior can be applied to more than one thing.

So you believe that we have more than one Savior? Your predicament is compounded even more when I ask if you believe we have more than one God, more than one Lord, more than one King, more than one Creator, more than one who is all in all, etc.

I meant "a god".

Losing the capital letter doesn't make the question go away, friend...you believe there is more than one god? Are you a polytheist?

I don't think of "the father" as a person, I think of a father as a father.

All the fathers I've ever met are people...

Moshiach is the hebrew term, and I don't see why not

Then how in the world can you say that Jesus did not claim to be the Messiah? Matthew 16:13-17

yes, but jesus was executed for gaining a huge following and making the fancy pants religious jews look like fools (which they did for themselves,really - any man of greatness always makes a fool stand out. Read about socrates, its the same thing).

And also for claiming to be God, as the verse I cited plainly states.

my point is he never would have gotten anywhere near that far if he had a complete lack of understanding of hebrew theology and culture.

He turned Hebrew theology and culture, in many ways, on its head. Read the Sermon on the Mount and the surrounding passages some time...it's the exact opposite of what the Pharisees had been teaching for hundreds of years.

the jews are right to the baffled by modern christians in the same way people would have been baffled by jesus, if he showed a total lack of understanding of the torah.

People were baffled by Jesus. Again, that's why they executed Him as a heretic. Have you not read John 15:18-20?

on the contrary, jesus schooled even the high priests on the torah.

he made a ton of SENSE and his teachings were very simple, direct, powerful, and exhibited a very clear understanding of 'the torah', the teaching, "the law".

Sure. I don't see how that's contrary to His claims to deity.

if you are thinking along those lines, you did not understand what Jesus meant when someone praised him but he redirected the praise to the Almighty which he served.

That's the whole point of the passage I showed you earlier...He didn't just re-direct the praise, He demanded it in equality with the One who sent Him, the Father.

[Narnian]

Then how in the world can you say that Jesus did not claim to be the Messiah? Matthew 16:13-17

The Quran calls Jesus the Messiah, so what are you talking about Barnasha?

[smaneck]

Why should I satisfy both of your closed minds? .

Dan,

In a previous post you wrote:

"that thing called "islam" which we don't care to actually understand is evil"

And now you are telling us we are close minded?

Amazing, truly amazing.

[Dan Zebiri]

Barnasha, smaneck and son of abu talib,

Spoken like a true muslim (or bahai) Barney!

Of course you are an islamophle and a muslim personified, even though pretending otherwise is most blatant on your part!

Yes, of course, Jesus Christ has the power AND the authority to judge and to send sould to Heavan and to hell...you have faield to take cognizance of the whole Scripture, especially those about Jesus Messiahship :

The TRUE Messiah is also the Son of God, the Redeemer who sacrificed His life for the sins of Mankind, and the true Messiah IS ALSO DIVINE in nature.

So, if your 'acceptance of the Messiah' falls short of the above, then too bad, you have fallen far short of the REAL THING.

Matthew 24:30(Whole Chapter) :-

"And then [Matt 24:3; Rev 1:7] the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see [Dan 7:13; Matt 16:27; 24:3, 37, 39] the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matthew 26:64(Whole Chapter) :-

Jesus said to him:

" [Matt 26:25] : " You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see [Ps 110:1; Mark 14:62] THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and [Dan 7:13; Matt 16:27] COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

THATS HOW, Jesus Christ, the Son of Man AND the ONLY Son of God, will be returning at the end of the ages - AS A KING AND A JUDGE, not as some prophet that did not complete his task the first time.

Yes, and He also has the right to send unbelievers into hell forever!

Dan.

[barnasha]

Then how in the world can you say that Jesus did not claim to be the Messiah? Matthew 16:13-17

The Quran calls Jesus the Messiah, so what are you talking about Barnasha?

When I said what, exactly?

[quote]

Barnasha, smaneck and son of abu talib,

Spoken like a true muslim (or bahai) Barney!

that's all you can say?


hmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Huguenot]

Dan,

In a previous post you wrote:

"that thing called "islam" which we don't care to actually understand is evil"

And now you are telling us we are close minded?

Amazing, truly amazing.

Muhammad was evil, no? Is rape "evil" in your book?

What is evil?

What is truth?

[barnasha]

Muhammad was evil, no? Is rape "evil" in your book?

Very weak strategy

[smaneck]

Muhammad was evil, no? Is rape "evil" in your book?

Muhammad raped no one.

What is evil?

Slandering prophets for starters.

What is truth?

Obviously not something you concern yourself with.

[Dan Zebiri]

Barney,

Jesus Christ has the power AND the authority to judge and to send souls to Heavan and to hell...you have failed to take cognizance of the whole Scripture, especially those about Jesus Messiahship :

The TRUE Messiah is also the Son of God, the Redeemer who sacrificed His life for the sins of Mankind, and the true Messiah IS ALSO DIVINE in nature.

So, if your 'acceptance of the Messiah' falls short of the above, then too bad, you have fallen far short of the REAL THING.

Matthew 24:30(Whole Chapter) :-

"And then [Matt 24:3; Rev 1:7] the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see [Dan 7:13; Matt 16:27; 24:3, 37, 39] the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matthew 26:64(Whole Chapter) :-

Jesus said to him:

" [Matt 26:25] : " You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see [Ps 110:1; Mark 14:62] THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and [Dan 7:13; Matt 16:27] COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

THATS HOW, Jesus Christ, the Son of Man AND the ONLY Son of God, will be returning at the end of the ages - AS A KING AND A JUDGE, not as some prophet that did not complete his task the first time.

Yes, and He also has the right to send unbelievers into hell forever! And to give eternal life to those who trust in Him as their shepherd Redeemer, and as their Lord.

John 10:26-28:
26 "But you do not believe because (C)you are not of My sheep.

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 and I GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO THEM, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Listen CAREFULLY TO HIS WORDS, Barney, your eternal future depends on it!

Dan.

[barnasha]

Barney,

Jesus Christ has the power AND the authority to judge and to send souls to Heavan and to hell...you have failed to take cognizance of the whole Scripture, especially those about Jesus Messiahship :

If you really followed Jesus, you would listen to his teachings, rather than go around talking about his name.

You have not yet become a disciple of your lord.