A Question for Calvinists

[Jaltus]

A question which came up somewhere else is the subject of this post.

Calvinists: if one is saved by grace through faith, and yet faith is caused by that same grace, then what is faith?

In other words, how does faith save when it seems in your view that grace saves and faith is a byproduct of grace?

[Nang]

A question which came up somewhere else is the subject of this post.

Calvinists: if one is saved by grace through faith, and yet faith is caused by that same grace, then what is faith?

In other words, how does faith save when it seems in your view that grace saves and faith is a byproduct of grace?

A sinner is saved by the grace of God.

God, in His grace, gives the sons of God the capacity and instrument of faith, to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. God, in His grace, grants the sons of God repentance from sin.

Both faith and repentance are commanded of God under the Law, but no sinner is able or willing to believe and turn from sin. It is only by the grace of God, who anoints the sons of God with His Holy Spirit, that achieves what is necessary for salvation.

Faith comes from God; not from within sinful man. Faith is a gift from God; not a virtue inherent in mankind. Faith comes from outside the sinner; not from within.

The faith God gives to His own, is the very attribute of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was the only Man ever born of woman, who has exhibited natural faith in the Father.

Sinners are saved by His virtue, His faith, and His perfect performance of the Law. Sinners are saved by His love and grace that was the basis of His vicarious sufferings and death on the cross.

Sinners are first justified before God through the mediatorship of Jesus Christ, and then are called out by His Spirit in their lifetime to receive the blessings of faith and repentance, by which they become conscious and are made able to apply their new standing in grace with God.

Ephesians 2:1-10.

Here is a great article that teaches the subject much better than I:

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/faithof.html

Nang

[Adrift]

What is the Calvinist definition of "faith" then and how does one account for Abraham's faith? And what of statements like the one found in Roman 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all...

or in the NIV translation:

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all

I may be wrong, but it seem this verse is telling us that faith comes first then the promise by grace.

[Nang]

What is the Calvinist definition of "faith" then and how does one account for Abraham's faith?

Faith is the spiritual ability to comprehend the truths of God. Faith comes from the grace of God upon hearing the word of God (gospel/promises). Faith is the means or instrument whereby the sons of God gain knowledge of forgiveness and ultimate salvation.

Abraham received faith from God to believe the covenant promises; both earthly and heavenly. This is the very definition of saving grace.

And what of statements like the one found in Roman 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all...

This is Paul teaching salvation by grace through faith, versus salvation by works done under the Law.

Just as Abraham was given faith to believe the covenant promises, so all the sons of God are given faith to believe God's promises. All the souls justified by the Savior will be given faith to believe the good news of Jesus Christ and God's grace.

or in the NIV translation:

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all

I may be wrong, but it seem this verse is telling us that faith comes first then the promise by grace.

Regeneration (being born again from above) precedes faith. Jesus taught:

". . Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

The sinner must first be changed into a new spiritual man, and given a new heart, new spiritual eyes, and new spiritual ears, through the power and indwelling ("anointing") of Christ's Spirit, before he can comprehend ("see") the things of God:

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God." I Corinthians 2:12

Nang

[Adrift]

Faith is the spiritual ability to comprehend the truths of God.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying...
Definition
Faith - The spiritual ability to comprehend the truths of God

Not that I doubt you, but where is this in scripture? I can see how faith may be how we comprehend the truths of God (though I think there's probably even a bit of wiggle room in this statement), but I'm wondering where faith is defined as the ability to comprehend.

Faith comes from the grace of God upon hearing the word of God (gospel/promises).

My Bible leaves out the phrase "grace of God"

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith is the means or instrument whereby the sons of God gain knowledge of forgiveness and ultimate salvation.

Yeah, ok... I can go with that.

Abraham received faith from God to believe the covenant promises; both earthly and heavenly. This is the very definition of saving grace.

Again, not that I doubt you. I don't have the Bible memorized... yet, but where does scripture say that Abraham received his faith?

This is Paul teaching salvation by grace through faith, versus salvation by works done under the Law.

Agreed

Just as Abraham was given faith to believe the covenant promises, so all the sons of God are given faith to believe God's promises. All the souls justified by the Savior will be given faith to believe the good news of Jesus Christ and God's grace.

I'm reading this a bit differently

The scriptures say that the promise is given by having faith in Jesus Christ. The promise is given to those who believe (Gal 3:21). That salvation is gained by faith, which is to say, by confessing Jesus is lord and believing in one's heart that God raised Jesus from the dead (Rom 9:8-10).

Regeneration (being born again from above) precedes faith. Jesus taught:

". . Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

I don't see how the verse follows your statement. Why can't it follow that one is born again through the faith received by hearing, understanding and believing God's word?

The sinner must first be changed into a new spiritual man, and given a new heart, new spiritual eyes, and new spiritual ears, through the power and indwelling ("anointing") of Christ's Spirit, before he can comprehend ("see") the things of God:

I believe that, but I don't think that precludes one from obtaining salvation through faith in the first place.

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God." I Corinthians 2:12

Nang

Right, the Spirit is received. What does that have to do with faith exactly?

[Nang]

So correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying...
Definition
Faith - The spiritual ability to comprehend the truths of God

Not that I doubt you, but where is this in scripture? I can see how faith may be how we comprehend the truths of God (though I think there's probably even a bit of wiggle room in this statement), but I'm wondering where faith is defined as the ability to comprehend.

Natural ungodly souls, hear the gospel preached but consider it foolishness, for they are without the Spirit of God:

"The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." I Corinthians 2:14

When discussing faith, we discuss a divine topic and a virtue possessed by Jesus Christ alone. Natural, earthly sinners must be born again by the Spirit of Christ, before they can "receive the things of the Spirit of God."

Faith to believe in God does not exist in humanity at large. All men are born sinners, and spiritually dead to the witness of God:

"There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God." Romans 3:11

Thus, the necessity for the new spiritual birth from above.

where does scripture say that Abraham received his faith?

"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all . . .to each of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift." Ephesians 4:4, 5, 7

This passage describes each and every spiritual offspring ("seed") of God; Abraham being the soul chosen by God to produce the "SEED," Jesus Christ the Savior.

"He (Abraham) did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. And therefore 'it was accounted to him for righteousness.' Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification." Romans 4:20-25

The Christian's faith is not the means to receiving imputed righteousness.

Imputed righteousness (which was legally imposed at the time of the cross), is the means to sinners receiving the grace of God through faith.

The sentence against us (enmity, curse, suffering, death, hellfire) has been exchanged for the righteousness of Jesus Christ; imputed to our accounts with God by the legal ruling of God. And Jesus Christ resurrected from death to guarantee He will raise us from condemnation and death, to everlasting life and glory on the last day. "He was raised for our justification."

The scriptures say that the promise is given by having faith in Jesus Christ. The promise is given to those who believe (Gal 3:21). That salvation is gained by faith, which is to say, by confessing Jesus is lord and believing in one's heart that God raised Jesus from the dead (Rom 9:8-10).

We do not believe to get saved.

We believe because we have been saved.

"Belief" is the fruit of faith. "Faith" is the fruit of the Holy Spirit (see Galatians 5:22). The "anointing" of the Holy Spirit is the fruit of the grace of God; freely given to sanctify and save. (Romans 5:15)

Why can't it follow that one is born again through the faith received by hearing, understanding and believing God's word?

Without the Holy Spirit indwelling, sinners cannot believe or understand the things of God, in order to get faith.

". . Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." Romans 8:9b

I believe that, but I don't think that precludes one from obtaining salvation through faith in the first place.

You are assuming sinners, whose hearts are wicked and hard as stone, and who are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins; being by nature children of wrath, have the capacity, ability, and virtue to exhibit faith in God.

I believe such is impossible, according to the teachings of John 3:3, I Cor. 2:14, and Romans 8:9.

Right, the Spirit is received. What does that have to do with faith exactly?

EVERYTHING!!!

No grace, no Holy Spirit. No Holy Spirit, no new heart. No new heart, no faith. No faith, no belief in the gospel. No belief in Jesus Christ, no true confession. . . Conclusion: No salvation.

[Jaltus]

Nang,

So Grace brings in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit regenerates (= new heart), regeneration predicates faith, faith becomes belief, and belief becomes confession (= salvation, Romans 10:9 I assume).

While I do not see the difference between belief and faith (not that it matters here), I still do not see the point of faith. The article you pointed toward said that the faith that matters is Jesus' faith, not our faith. So are you saying that grace brings about Jesus' faith inside us? That seems problematic.

[Nang]

Nang,

So Grace brings in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit regenerates (= new heart), regeneration predicates faith, faith becomes belief, and belief becomes confession (= salvation, Romans 10:9 I assume).

While I do not see the difference between belief and faith (not that it matters here), I still do not see the point of faith. The article you pointed toward said that the faith that matters is Jesus' faith, not our faith. So are you saying that grace brings about Jesus' faith inside us? That seems problematic.

Why?

What have any of we Christians received . . . apart from God?

What do any of we Christians possess . . . apart from God?

What can any of we Christians activate, utilize, practice, observe, manifest, or employ . . . apart from God?

Nang

[Jaltus]

I guess my issue is that belief and faith (in the NT) are the same word, and belief requires action (hence Romans 10:9), but you are arguing that faith is not even something a person does since it is not the faith of the individual that is referenced but the faith of Christ.

[Nang]

I guess my issue is that belief and faith (in the NT) are the same word, and belief requires action (hence Romans 10:9), but you are arguing that faith is not even something a person does since it is not the faith of the individual that is referenced but the faith of Christ.

No, I believe it is the gift of faith from God the Father that produces a new spiritual ability and desire in the sinner to believe the gospel of the Son, Jesus Christ that manifests new and evidenciary good works of His Spirit, without which, mere confession of faith is dead. (James 2:14-26, Romans 8:9)

Nang

[Kane]

It seems to me from many readings on the issue of saved by grace through faith that this issue is hotly debated moreso as a principle, ideology, or academic doctrine.

I wonder if anyone shares my view that Grace is not simply a quality issued forth from God that stirs a person's heart to His call to salvation? I wonder if, like me, some people might understand Grace as actually being Christ Himself? And if so, then faith would simply be the natural response of the imago dei to trust (fides/faith) Christ's presentation of Himself to a contrite heart.

Thoughts?

[romans120]

A question which came up somewhere else is the subject of this post.

Calvinists: if one is saved by grace through faith, and yet faith is caused by that same grace, then what is faith?

In other words, how does faith save when it seems in your view that grace saves and faith is a byproduct of grace?

I think your question is worded kinda funny. The verse explicitly says salvation is by grace. Yet your question imply's salvation is by faith. In other words you imply faith is the means of grace. But the structure of the sentence means faith is the means of salvation. since salvation is in the form of a participle and is therefore verbal and grace is a noun and does not imply action. Since faith is the means of salvation it can only be by grace if God produces the faith.

[Nang]

It seems to me from many readings on the issue of saved by grace through faith that this issue is hotly debated moreso as a principle, ideology, or academic doctrine.

I wonder if anyone shares my view that Grace is not simply a quality issued forth from God that stirs a person's heart to His call to salvation? I wonder if, like me, some people might understand Grace as actually being Christ Himself? And if so, then faith would simply be the natural response of the imago dei to trust (fides/faith) Christ's presentation of Himself to a contrite heart.

Thoughts?

Yes, indeed. I agree with you. "Jesus Christ, full of grace and truth."

This is called "positional" theology. One is saved by being spiritually positioned in Christ. Those souls who abide in Him, and He in them, constitute the "church" or spiritual body of Christ; He being the Head.

This is grace. This is adoption into the family of God through the Son. This is inheritance of God's riches, name, and life.

Many consider grace to be mere kindness on the part of God towards all men, that must be utilized by the sinner. This makes grace out to be a universally obtainable commodity. This is wrong.

Grace is God, through the power and Spirit of Christ, transforming dead sinners to new spiritual life; guaranteeing them everlasting life due to His indwelling and His Mediation at the right hand of God on their behalf. Christ acts as High Priest at "the throne of grace" for His children.

I could go on . . . but you are right on track.

Nang

[Jaltus]

I think your question is worded kinda funny. The verse explicitly says salvation is by grace. Yet your question imply's salvation is by faith. In other words you imply faith is the means of grace. But the structure of the sentence means faith is the means of salvation. since salvation is in the form of a participle and is therefore verbal and grace is a noun and does not imply action. Since faith is the means of salvation it can only be by grace if God produces the faith.

No, my question is asking what is the point of faith if grace is all that is required? What is the definition of faith? Why is salvation through faith?

We are saved by means of both grace and faith, not an either or.

[romans120]

No, my question is asking what is the point of faith if grace is all that is required? What is the definition of faith? Why is salvation through faith?

We are saved by means of both grace and faith, not an either or.

what is the point of grace if I don't need it because I'm good enough to have faith? grace produces faith which produces salvation. therefore we are saved by grace which leads to faith.