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Question for Leonhard

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  • Question for Leonhard

    Leon, you said this:

    Do you write a post about what we as Christians ought to do to accomodate gay people?
    Here:

    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post343809

    What do you think that we as Christians should do to accommodate gay people?

    I have no problem with someone who says they are homosexual and living in celibacy. I have no problem with them attending church, no problem fellowshipping with them.

    What else should be done by believers to accommodate them?

    Others can respond as well, here, but please let us keep it civil, as we should.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

  • #2
    Right now I'm angry, and I think I'll sleep for tonight, and consider if I can do this without losing my cool. I'm sorry Mossy, today has just been bad. Hopefully I'm more cool headed tomorrow, and I won't mind writing down some stuff.

    Comment


    • #3
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
        Right now I'm angry, and I think I'll sleep for tonight, and consider if I can do this without losing my cool. I'm sorry Mossy, today has just been bad. Hopefully I'm more cool headed tomorrow, and I won't mind writing down some stuff.


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          Right now I'm angry, and I think I'll sleep for tonight, and consider if I can do this without losing my cool. I'm sorry Mossy, today has just been bad. Hopefully I'm more cool headed tomorrow, and I won't mind writing down some stuff.
          Good idea. Always best to reply when one can do so thoughtfully rather than emotionally. Hope you have a good night's sleep.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            Leon, you said this:



            Here:

            http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post343809

            What do you think that we as Christians should do to accommodate gay people?

            I have no problem with someone who says they are homosexual and living in celibacy. I have no problem with them attending church, no problem fellowshipping with them.

            What else should be done by believers to accommodate them?

            Others can respond as well, here, but please let us keep it civil, as we should.
            Was about to start a thread on this very topic. Thank you mossrose.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              Was about to start a thread on this very topic. Thank you mossrose.
              You also said some good things about this in that thread, Adrift. Will look forward to seeing you post here.


              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thank you for this post Mossy, its very generous of you.

                Still cooling off, so I might give it some extra time before diving into some of things I wish the local communities had done. But first I want to say what I'm not asking. I don't think Christians should compromise their faith.

                We've been handed a holy faith by Christ and commanded to spread it to the world. While some of us disagree on aspects of it, I'm Catholic and believe in apostolic succession and tradition (One Bad Pig is Eastern Orthodox and does the same in a different way), we all generally agree on the basic moral principles. One of these is that homosexual conduct is a sin, and a marriage between two people of the same sex is at best a simulation, at worst a mockery of sacred matrimony.

                I'm not asking anyone to change that, as its what I myself believe and preach.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  Thank you for this post Mossy, its very generous of you.

                  Still cooling off, so I might give it some extra time before diving into some of things I wish the local communities had done. But first I want to say what I'm not asking. I don't think Christians should compromise their faith.

                  We've been handed a holy faith by Christ and commanded to spread it to the world. While some of us disagree on aspects of it, I'm Catholic and believe in apostolic succession and tradition (One Bad Pig is Eastern Orthodox and does the same in a different way), we all generally agree on the basic moral principles. One of these is that homosexual conduct is a sin, and a marriage between two people of the same sex is at best a simulation, at worst a mockery of sacred matrimony.

                  I'm not asking anyone to change that, as its what I myself believe and preach.
                  No problem, Leon. I don't mind waiting to hear what you have to say until you are ready.

                  And I thank you for this post, as it clears up one question.



                  Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have to admit I'm kind of torn on this issue.

                    Part of me wants to answer : 'If consenting adults want to engage in sinful sexual behaviour, I'll encourage them by word and example not to, but ultimately it's their choice and they will have to live with the consequences.'. IOW, live and let live.

                    The other part of me says "Gay activists won't live and let live - they want to compel endorsement of, and positive support for, their behaviour." And, sadly, I think this is where we're heading in most Western countries, with Christians being actively targeted for no other reason than that they believe homosexual behaviour is sin.

                    I seriously doubt that 'live and let live' will be a live option for Christians in the immediate future. It'll be either: become 'pro-gay'; or fight the gay activists for your right to your beliefs.
                    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Considering Maxvel's post, I'll just reiterate:

                      I don't think Christians should compromise their faith.

                      We've been handed a holy faith by Christ and commanded to spread it to the world. While some of us disagree on aspects of it, I'm Catholic and believe in apostolic succession and tradition (One Bad Pig is Eastern Orthodox and does the same in a different way), we all generally agree on the basic moral principles. One of these is that homosexual conduct is a sin, and a marriage between two people of the same sex is at best a simulation, at worst a mockery of sacred matrimony.

                      I'm not asking anyone to change that, as its what I myself believe and preach.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I appreciate your statement, Leonard. The question remains, "What do you think that we as Christians should do to accommodate gay people?"
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm sorry Jedidiah and Mossrose, I've been meaning to answer it but I've been busy at a Hackathon (we're developing a webservice system for an anime convention). I was going to write a little about it after our daily session ended, but I went home to a friend and the talk went to IT security, watching Mr Robot, etc...

                          Here's the answer I was working on in between tasks.

                          First of all my experiences are local to me, and what I've heard from others. I won't be generalizing what I've felt, or thought about. I've grown up in Denmark, which is primarily a social democratic country, with a very liberal view of personal freedom. The first country in the world to legalize pornography. Most of my time I haven't met much of an opposition or aversion to homosexuality, aside from a few things.

                          Questions may be freely asked.

                          As for me. I am gay, I was when I was an atheist and I am now. My sexual preference has primarily been other guys, both emotionally as well as bodily. I can form ordinary friendships, and its usually not a problem. I have never met a girl I really wanted to pursue a long lasting relationship with, though I've tried.

                          I won't discuss the usage of the word 'gay' and whether its suitable or not for a celibate Christian to describe themselves that way. All I'll say is that celibacy is a choice, but my sexual preference isn't, and 'homoerotic sexual attraction' is quite a mouthful in comparison to a short three letter word.

                          When I talk about the problems I've met in Christian communities, I'm also not saying that there's not similar problems in other communities, religious or not. However as I identify as a Christian, and I'm more concerned with it and I've been asked specifically what Christian communities could do, that's what I'll be talking about. I'm also not saying that these biases, and problems are universal to all Christians, but that nonetheless these are things I've encountered in these communities, and I don't see much if any effort to do anything about it.

                          With all these caveats in place...

                          First of all I wish I didn't feel an immediate suspicion towards people who are gay. I don't know why this happens per say, and I can only guess. We're in the middle of a culture war, which by all accounts Christians are on the losing side of. Despite our protests marriage has been redefined, and was being redefined for a long time, and before then I guess gay people might have been viewed with special suspicion due to their particular sin. I've heard quite a few unflattering words of suspicion used against a particular priest or another, about whether he's gay, usually spurred by mentions of some fault of his or another. This is whether its a person who lives in celibacy, and has repented of a former life, or of things he has done in a moment of weakness.

                          I've also found it hard to discuss gay issues. In places where I've been with Christian friends, I've laid mentions what Christians sometimes say or do, that makes the atmosphere very unwelcome to people who are gay. As soon as I mention these things, someone occasionally pipes in with mentions of how Christians shouldn't compromise on sexual morality, and that Christian who are in same-sex couples can't be living the Christian Faith. And of course I can't but agree with that, but it usually has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I don't think these people are trying to distract consciously, but what I say remind them of some issues they're aware, and they respond with that. But its a bit disheartening that as soon as you mention some such as say crass jokes at the expense of gay people, that the subject is quickly switched to the issue of why we should be fighting gay marriage.

                          Personally I think Christians if they want to be supportive to gay Christians, celibate or those occasionally falling though striving to rise (I reiterate... I am not talking about unrepentant people), should be willing to listen to some of their concerns, rather than cast suspicion on them behind their backs, or turning every discussion about this stuff to talks about say... why gay marriage is wrong. What Mossy, Cow Poke and Jedidiah and others here are doing is very commendable, and its actually the first time people have asked me like this, which I find very touching.

                          Something that is a bit more complex is the way I find myself psychoanalysed in conversation with some Christians, blaming it all on my father etc... I might post about that tomorrow.

                          This is all I've got for today.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks for your reply, Leon. And please don't apologize for taking time to respond.

                            I am hoping that you will feel comfortable enough to DO discuss this with us. We love you and care about you, and even though we may disagree on some points (although I haven't found much to disagree with as of now), we realize that we ALL struggle with issues in our lives and need to deal with our brethren in love. That's why I started this thread, because I can see your struggle and how it so often seems that you are being ganged up on.


                            I would like to clarify my issue with the usage of the word "gay". It bothers me to describe a lifestyle that seems anything but. However, your explanation as to why YOU use it is logical and for the purposes of this thread, I will not object to it's usage.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              I'm sorry Jedidiah and Mossrose, I've been meaning to answer it but I've been busy at a Hackathon (we're developing a webservice system for an anime convention). I was going to write a little about it after our daily session ended, but I went home to a friend and the talk went to IT security, watching Mr Robot, etc...

                              Here's the answer I was working on in between tasks.

                              First of all my experiences are local to me, and what I've heard from others. I won't be generalizing what I've felt, or thought about. I've grown up in Denmark, which is primarily a social democratic country, with a very liberal view of personal freedom. The first country in the world to legalize pornography. Most of my time I haven't met much of an opposition or aversion to homosexuality, aside from a few things.

                              Questions may be freely asked.

                              As for me. I am gay, I was when I was an atheist and I am now. My sexual preference has primarily been other guys, both emotionally as well as bodily. I can form ordinary friendships, and its usually not a problem. I have never met a girl I really wanted to pursue a long lasting relationship with, though I've tried.

                              I won't discuss the usage of the word 'gay' and whether its suitable or not for a celibate Christian to describe themselves that way. All I'll say is that celibacy is a choice, but my sexual preference isn't, and 'homoerotic sexual attraction' is quite a mouthful in comparison to a short three letter word.

                              When I talk about the problems I've met in Christian communities, I'm also not saying that there's not similar problems in other communities, religious or not. However as I identify as a Christian, and I'm more concerned with it and I've been asked specifically what Christian communities could do, that's what I'll be talking about. I'm also not saying that these biases, and problems are universal to all Christians, but that nonetheless these are things I've encountered in these communities, and I don't see much if any effort to do anything about it.

                              With all these caveats in place...

                              First of all I wish I didn't feel an immediate suspicion towards people who are gay. I don't know why this happens per say, and I can only guess. We're in the middle of a culture war, which by all accounts Christians are on the losing side of. Despite our protests marriage has been redefined, and was being redefined for a long time, and before then I guess gay people might have been viewed with special suspicion due to their particular sin. I've heard quite a few unflattering words of suspicion used against a particular priest or another, about whether he's gay, usually spurred by mentions of some fault of his or another. This is whether its a person who lives in celibacy, and has repented of a former life, or of things he has done in a moment of weakness.

                              I've also found it hard to discuss gay issues. In places where I've been with Christian friends, I've laid mentions what Christians sometimes say or do, that makes the atmosphere very unwelcome to people who are gay. As soon as I mention these things, someone occasionally pipes in with mentions of how Christians shouldn't compromise on sexual morality, and that Christian who are in same-sex couples can't be living the Christian Faith. And of course I can't but agree with that, but it usually has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I don't think these people are trying to distract consciously, but what I say remind them of some issues they're aware, and they respond with that. But its a bit disheartening that as soon as you mention some such as say crass jokes at the expense of gay people, that the subject is quickly switched to the issue of why we should be fighting gay marriage.

                              Personally I think Christians if they want to be supportive to gay Christians, celibate or those occasionally falling though striving to rise (I reiterate... I am not talking about unrepentant people), should be willing to listen to some of their concerns, rather than cast suspicion on them behind their backs, or turning every discussion about this stuff to talks about say... why gay marriage is wrong. What Mossy, Cow Poke and Jedidiah and others here are doing is very commendable, and its actually the first time people have asked me like this, which I find very touching.

                              Something that is a bit more complex is the way I find myself psychoanalysed in conversation with some Christians, blaming it all on my father etc... I might post about that tomorrow.

                              This is all I've got for today.
                              Thanks you - a lot here to think about.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment

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