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  • #16
    I also think part of the problem is that we tend to use "gay" to refer to the orientation and the behavior, when there are many christians who, like Leonhard, are gay orientation and celebate. They get lumped in when we talk about how homosexuality is a sin and I am sure they feel trod upon because of that. I wish there was a different term used for a person who has homosexual orientation but resists it. Because we don't call someone who is tempted to commit adultery but resists an "adulterer" do we?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      I also think part of the problem is that we tend to use "gay" to refer to the orientation and the behavior, when there are many christians who, like Leonhard, are gay orientation and celebate. They get lumped in when we talk about how homosexuality is a sin and I am sure they feel trod upon because of that. I wish there was a different term used for a person who has homosexual orientation but resists it. Because we don't call someone who is tempted to commit adultery but resists an "adulterer" do we?
      I think a lot of that has to do with the penchant of the "gay community" to identify with that particular temptation and that particular behavior, and proudly at that. They see it something akin to being black or being female. Something intrinsic to their very nature rather than something sinful, and not of their nature, to be resisted. We're only just now beginning to see that same sort of pride in other sexual sins such as adultery what with online dating services like Ashley Madison, and the coinage and acceptance of polyamory.

      I also think there's a division among Christians concerning where the line of sin is drawn. Jesus says in Matthew that even looking upon a (married) woman with lust is committing adultery with her in his heart. Commentators and lay Christians have debated what exactly this means, and how literal it should be taken, but many commentators think it's pretty clear that it ought to be taken seriously, and that it is applicable to other sexual sins (Craig Keener comes to mind). Then the question steps to, "well what is lust exactly", and it seems to me that lust is not merely attraction, but a form of contemplation. I can walk into a bookstore, see a magazine rack full of half naked women on the cover, and decide whether I want my mind to dwell on the images, what I'd want to do with them, or I can renew my mind, and not let it go there at all. The dwelling on those images is the leading into sin part. Attraction on its own isn't sin.

      That brings up a side subject: What do we mean when we say "attraction"? After all, most people can find either sex attractive. I think that Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime was a very attractive man. I don't feel any sexual attraction for him, but I certainly wouldn't mind having his physique, and I understand why some women might have found him attractive.

      So, okay, attraction on its own isn't sin, but then, what are we to think of those who are not free of their personal sins? A man with anger problems who is able to keep his anger in check, but struggles with it daily isn't free. The alcoholic who is able to abstain, but still struggles daily isn't free. But the Bible indicates that Jesus offers freedom. Some Christians have concluded that that is just the personal cross that each person must bear. A lot of Christians don't think that. Many Christians believe that there is real and true freedom from even the struggle. That Christ's cross truly is light. Not that temptation will not occasionally rear its ugly head, but that, for the most part, the person is whole, and has found peacefulness, and has found that they are not tempted in the same way again. That daily they are further healed, and find strength in Christ.

      And then there's the topic of whether or not homosexuality is something that can be overcome completely. That one's orientation can be properly aligned to God's will. From the tone of Leonhard's posts, it doesn't appear he believes that's the case. Many Christians are in agreement with him about that. I imagine the majority of Christians on this forum would agree with him about that. But there are a number of Christians who think that, based on all things are possible through Christ, that one can overcome. Who have seen with their own eyes, and know people intimately who have overcome their personal struggles, and come out the other side healed and whole. I've seen it on more than a couple occasions myself, at least twice among people I dearly love and am intimately familiar with. So why haven't all overcome? Is it some mental block holding them back? Is it a lack of faith in God's ability to heal and/or a lack of faithfulness? Is it something else altogether? Many Christians who have suffered from their struggles with sin, poverty, illness, and the like will strongly and truthfully answer, NO, that isn't the issue. They've more than committed their lives to Christ. They have given their all. They have prayed, and they have been prayed over. They have gone to retreats, and meetings, and services, and had personal counseling. Had great men of God work with them and pray over them and...nothing. I believe them. I don't know what the answer is in those cases. I don't know why God does not always answer prayer, or why he sometimes allows what he allows. I have some guesses, I can speculate, but I don't know. But I'm also not convinced that God desires for us to live a life of struggle, and be in constant pain. It may be God's will that we are occasionally put through some very trying times, but I don't believe he intentionally tortures us, or desires for us to be permanently tortured. No father does that to his children. God desires us to have joy, and peace, and a more than abundant life.

      There is another side to the story, of course, and that is that we have a tempter, who would like nothing more but drive a wedge between us and our God, and he'll use any means at his disposal to do so, but I believe we can overcome even him through Christ.

      Anyhow, I don't have any answers, but thought I'd share my musings on the subject.
      Last edited by Adrift; 07-19-2016, 10:39 AM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Thanks Leonhard for sharing something of your struggle. While we all struggle with sin (rather than just giving in, I hope!) yours is a particularly difficult battle. Jesus knows those who are His, and knows just what they are capable of - so you must be one tough Christian!


        You have always been someone on TWeb whose faith I've admired. This doesn't change that, if anything it makes me admire you more.


        Perhaps there are two areas here that Christians need to consider a response to:

        A: How should Christians respond to people in your situation (seeking to follow Jesus, but fighting with temptation and/or sinful behaviour)?

        and

        B: How should Christians respond to the wider cultural move, prompted by gay activists, to censor, ban and socially exile Christians who refuse to accept and endorse homosexuality?


        Actually I think the answer to (A) is in part the answer to (B). I think Christians should accept the people, love them, encourage them in the faith, pray for them, pick them up when they fall... ...just as we should for anyone struggling to follow Jesus. Just as we should for anyone.

        I think, in part, if we do do that, then that will make the wider public wonder about the need for all that the extreme gay rights movement is pushing for. The more Christians show themselves as loving, even those who reject some or all of God's moral standards, the more ridiculous the activists hatred of Christ will look.
        ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

        Comment


        • #19
          Thanks for the very positive response guys. Right now I'm busy on some work on Kishu (our event-registration system), so sorry to Sparko for not posting that thing about why Smurf is wrong, or writing another thing I've experienced as quite a problem. I might finish that later tonight. I'm just writing this quickly while waiting for us to catch a bus.

          Originally posted by mossrose
          I am hoping that you will feel comfortable enough to DO discuss this with us.
          Sure thing. I'll always respond to anyone who asks nicely and reasonably.

          Originally posted by mossrose
          I would like to clarify my issue with the usage of the word "gay". It bothers me to describe a lifestyle that seems anything but. However, your explanation as to why YOU use it is logical and for the purposes of this thread, I will not object to it's usage.
          Originally posted by Sparko
          I wish there was a different term used for a person who has homosexual orientation but resists it.
          I'm sympathetic to these concerns, but I find that all other terms either sound medical, long, and/or a bit esoteric. It might be worth a thread elsewhere. Here I'll be using 'gay'.

          Originally posted by Adrift
          That brings up a side subject: What do we mean when we say "attraction"?
          Attraction is a very complex phenomenon, and I agree that its a term that's can be difficult if you want to get precise. Honestly I don't understand how attraction works.

          All I can tell you is that I have next to no desire to form a long lasting intimate relationship with a woman. I've tried picturing it, but its just not connecting. I guess I could do it if I felt I needed to, but there wouldn't be much heart in it. On the other hand there are a few guys I know where I get the feeling of "Yup! That one! Him! I wanna be with him!" and of course also getting erotic desires. I don't get that stuff with girls... they're pretty, and I guess I can see why guys like it, but I simple don't respond in the same way to them.

          So I mean all of that when I say I'm attracted to guys.

          I won't be discussing whether sexuality changes during your life, whether God heals this, etc... That's a huge, controversial and complex topic. Suffice it to say, I wouldn't mind if God healed me, but I've long, long since stopped actively praying for that and accepted a celibate life (which early Christians considered nobler anyway ).

          Its my 'thorn in my flsh', paraphrasing St. Paul.

          Source: 2 Corinthians 12:7-9?, NIV

          To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

          © Copyright Original Source



          Originally posted by Maxvel
          A: How should Christians respond to people in your situation (seeking to follow Jesus, but fighting with temptation and/or sinful behaviour)?
          Thanks for the kind words. Actually I do think one thing Christians could do is stop doing some of the things I think contribute gay Christians feeling unwelcome (again, the things that don't compromise the faith). We can't approve sin, but we can certainly stop gossiping gay people as in my first example. That would be an improvement. I don't have any advice on positive things that can be done. I definitely advice against spontanious prayer sessions for someone who is gay that they didn't ask for. I do encourage just being good friends with them, not judging them and treating them no differently than you would your straight friend who is also a sinner.

          B: How should Christians respond to the wider cultural move, prompted by gay activists, to censor, ban and socially exile Christians who refuse to accept and endorse homosexuality?
          We stand our ground.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
            Attraction is a very complex phenomenon, and I agree that its a term that's can be difficult if you want to get precise. Honestly I don't understand how attraction works.

            All I can tell you is that I have next to no desire to form a long lasting intimate relationship with a woman. I've tried picturing it, but its just not connecting. I guess I could do it if I felt I needed to, but there wouldn't be much heart in it. On the other hand there are a few guys I know where I get the feeling of "Yup! That one! Him! I wanna be with him!" and of course also getting erotic desires. I don't get that stuff with girls... they're pretty, and I guess I can see why guys like it, but I simple don't respond in the same way to them.

            So I mean all of that when I say I'm attracted to guys.
            Hmm. I guess I don't fully understand the wanting to be with/live with thing as a primary element to attraction so much. I'm probably overthinking it, but I've had roommates that I loved living with, both guys and girls. And I've had guy friends that I remember thinking, "Man, wouldn't it be cool if we lived in the same house forever! We'd have so much fun!", and then I've been engaged, and thought to myself "man, I love her, but I don't know if I could live with her forever" (we didn't stay engaged ). There's been plenty of times where I thought to myself, "I'm actually pretty happy not being with anyone", and all of these thoughts and considerations are, of course, separate from any sexual desires. But yes, the concept of attraction is something that needs to be hammered out more.

            I won't be discussing whether sexuality changes during your life, whether God heals this, etc... That's a huge, controversial and complex topic. Suffice it to say, I wouldn't mind if God healed me, but I've long, long since stopped actively praying for that and accepted a celibate life (which early Christians considered nobler anyway ).

            Its my 'thorn in my flsh', paraphrasing St. Paul.

            Source: 2 Corinthians 12:7-9?, NIV

            To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

            © Copyright Original Source

            That's fair. I have a different understanding of that passage (I don't think Paul's thorn in the flesh is something physical or mental, I think it was people as described at the end of 2 Cor 11), but that's for another thread I suppose.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
              Thanks Leonhard for sharing something of your struggle. While we all struggle with sin (rather than just giving in, I hope!) yours is a particularly difficult battle. Jesus knows those who are His, and knows just what they are capable of - so you must be one tough Christian!


              You have always been someone on TWeb whose faith I've admired. This doesn't change that, if anything it makes me admire you more.


              Perhaps there are two areas here that Christians need to consider a response to:

              A: How should Christians respond to people in your situation (seeking to follow Jesus, but fighting with temptation and/or sinful behaviour)?

              and

              B: How should Christians respond to the wider cultural move, prompted by gay activists, to censor, ban and socially exile Christians who refuse to accept and endorse homosexuality?


              Actually I think the answer to (A) is in part the answer to (B). I think Christians should accept the people, love them, encourage them in the faith, pray for them, pick them up when they fall... ...just as we should for anyone struggling to follow Jesus. Just as we should for anyone.

              I think, in part, if we do do that, then that will make the wider public wonder about the need for all that the extreme gay rights movement is pushing for. The more Christians show themselves as loving, even those who reject some or all of God's moral standards, the more ridiculous the activists hatred of Christ will look.
              ## One would have more confidence in that suggestion, if there were not all too much reason for the Christophobia. It's difficult to know what to say about this. Maybe the best approach is to make a series of points:

              1. Judging, or even appearing to judge, the inmost souls of - for instance - the folk in Westboro Baptist Church, is God's business, and God's alone. God know the secrets of the hearts of men, that are hidden even from them. We do not know ourselves perfectly, let alone with perfect truth; far less do we know the hearts of those whose&nbsp; utterances may seem - and even be - unChristian. So we are totally incompetent even to attempt&nbsp; to judge the hearts of others.

              2. Equally, it is a reality, not a gay myth, that WBC has said some things that do not exactly manifest the Love of Christ for SSA people.

              3. And WBC is not alone in this. When gay people hear a pastor on a video regret that more "pedophiles" (the word he chose, without at any trying to show that any of those killed were as described) had not been killed in the Orlando massacre, can they really be blamed if they are unimpressed by the Christ-like love of the speaker ?

              4. This regrettable contrast between how those who bear the Name of Christ behave, and how they are called to behave, is by no means confined to Protestants. More than a few have been burned as heretics, since sodomy counted as heresy. The earliest death penalty (among Christians) for sodomy goes back to the Emperor Justinian (reigned 527-65). The Reformation seems to have changed ideas on the subject very little. This Christian aversion to SSA people made it possible for 10,000-15,000 of them to be killed by the Nazis. When a Christian speaker in recent times attributes Nazism to SSA people, he is not doing much to recommend Christianity to them.

              5. So there is a genuine problem here: the Churches have not reflected the Love of God very convincingly - is it really surprising that a lot of SSA people see Christianity as an enemy ? Christians who wish faith in Christ to attract gay people, rather than repel them, need to know why, at present, Christianity often seems hateful and foul to gay people. Knowing only one's own side of the question, is not enough. This hatred, however deplorable, has been provoked by genuine injuries and wrongs - as a result, the atmosphere is poisoned. The problem is genuine, not invented or imagined; or simulated.

              There is a very good book, by a US Evangelical, called Straight & Narrow; Compassion & Clarity in the Homosexuality Debate, which addresses these questions candidly and in detail, with admirable charity and good sense. He does not shy away from pointing out the Churches have behaved toward gay people in a less than exemplary manner.
              Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 07-27-2016, 10:20 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                1. Judging, or even appearing to judge, the inmost souls of - for instance - the folk in Westboro Baptist Church, is God's business, and God's alone. God know the secrets of the hearts of men, that are hidden even from them. We do not know ourselves perfectly, let alone with perfect truth; far less do we know the hearts of those whose* utterances may seem - and even be - unChristian. So we are totally incompetent even to attempt* to judge the hearts of others.
                This isn't correct. Jesus tells us in Matthew 15 that we can know the heart of man by what comes out of his mouth. He also sets up rules for judging and excommunicating members of the faith in Matthew 18.

                2. Equally, it is a reality, not a gay myth, that WBC has said some things that do not exactly manifest the Love of Christ for SSA people.

                3. And WBC is not alone in this. When gay people hear a pastor on a video regret that more "pedophiles" (the word he chose, without at any trying to show that any of those killed were as described) had not been killed in the Orlando massacre, can they really be blamed if they are unimpressed by the Christ-like love of the speaker ?

                4. This regrettable contrast between how those who bear the Name of Christ behave, and how they are called to behave, is by no means confined to Protestants. More than a few have been burned as heretics, since sodomy counted as heresy. The earliest death penalty (among Christians) for sodomy goes back to the Emperor Justinian (reigned 527-65). The Reformation seems to have changed ideas on the subject very little. This Christian aversion to SSA people made it possible for 10,000-15,000 of them to be killed by the Nazis. When a Christian speaker in recent times attributes Nazism to SSA people, he is not doing much to recommend Christianity to them.

                5. So there is a genuine problem here: the Churches have not reflected the Love of God very convincingly - is it really surprising that a lot of SSA people see Christianity as an enemy ? Christians who wish faith in Christ to attract gay people, rather than repel them, need to know why, at present, Christianity often seems hateful and foul to gay people. Knowing only one's own side of the question, is not enough. This hatred, however deplorable, has been provoked by genuine injuries and wrongs - as a result, the atmosphere is poisoned. The problem is genuine, not invented or imagined; or simulated.
                These are probably decent points, but it seems to me that most of those struggling with same sex attraction know the difference between fringe lunatics like Westboro and your typical mainstream Christian. I agree though that these types do poison the well for all. I think one of the sticky points is expressing love and support, and encouragement to those who are dealing with the struggle of same sex attraction while at the same time not compromising on the fact that homosexuality is sin.

                There is a very good book, by a US Evangelical, called Straight & Narrow; Compassion & Clarity in the Homosexuality Debate, which addresses these questions candidly and in detail, with admirable charity and good sense. He does not shy away from pointing out the Churches have behaved toward gay people in a less than exemplary manner.
                We've actually discussed this book in previous threads.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Best book hands down on responding compassionately and truthfully to Christians and others with a homosexual orientation is Preston Sprinkle's People to Be Loved

                  https://www.amazon.com/People-Be-Lov...9671470&sr=8-1

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Amazing Rando View Post
                    Best book hands down on responding compassionately and truthfully to Christians and others with a homosexual orientation is Preston Sprinkle's People to Be Loved

                    https://www.amazon.com/People-Be-Lov...9671470&sr=8-1
                    I'll second this. I had it pre-ordered before it was released and was not at all disappointed.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Another problem that I experience the few times I've confided that I'm gay to other Christians, is that quite often I find that I'm casually psychoanalysed in a way that I don't see people doing to each other in general.

                      This can range from questions such as "Are you sure you're really gay?"

                      The above happened to me at Church, while waiting for the doors to open before mass, and I got into conversation with a good friend of mine. The subject had turned to marriage, and apparently some speaker he had been to had convinced him that all people ought to be married (save for monks and priests). I was a bit more hesitant, since I don't think all people are suitable for marriage, and I do believe there's such a thing as a single vocation, and finally I offered him an example of a 'friend' I knew who was homosexual and had chosen to live a life of celibacy.

                      This immediately then turned into him being extremely dubious about it, claiming that people quite often make up lies for themselves to justify their sins. It was a very coherent discussion, as I wasn't sure whether by sins he meant homosexual acts, which I had already told him my friend (me) doesn't engage in. Again for some reason it sounds me that people think celibate gay Christians are being naughty... or if you mention a gay Christian, that the assumptions is that they're *not* celibate.

                      The very idea that a gays own testimony is quickly treated as suspicious kinda bugs me.

                      I am a celibate orthodox Christian, unless there's clear evidence to the contrary, I'd like to this to be assumption. I should have to mention it in every meeting and discussion.

                      Also, when it comes to personal discussions about a persons sexuality. I'm not sayings its always wrong to ask "Are you sure?" But I think unless you have the person in front of you, and he's given you permission to ask these kinds of questions, then stick to your knitting. Even my spiritual advisor, an old kind monk, has told me its better for me to think too deeply about how I got to be this way, but rather focus on how I can live a good virtuous and life and focus on that. So if he isn't interested in the mechanics, I don't see why anyone else should be.

                      Another thing a bit more toxic is when I encounter someone who thinks he's an expert why people become gay for having read this or that book by some pastor or such. Personal edification is great. And reading about it can be a fascinating topic, as long as a person is humble and skeptical about what they know.

                      An example of something I know from people like this, are where the blame is turned on my father for having raised me in such a way as to make me gay.

                      This leaves me with little to no patience or desire to be in that persons presence, and but for the grace of God I return to mass (but not to the prayer meeting where he attends). Somehow some people think its okay to repeat the pseudo-Freudian nonsense that they think explains why I'm attracted to males, by picking out weaknesses in my father, whom I'm to honour.

                      To all of you I can tell you that my father was there for me when I needed him. He raised me with good values for honesty, justice and the value of hard labour. He took me bike riding in the forest. When he learned scuba diving, he'd often invite me and a friend to the swimming hall, so we could train with scuba gear, or out on the rubber speed boat. He was a prison guard and a strong kind of guy. While there were occasions when he weren't home, such as a month or two when he was on a ship for prisoners. I have nothing but good memories with him.

                      Also I had a fairly normal childhood, aside from being an autist. No one raped me when I was little. I had other male friends, and aside from my tomboyish sister I didn't play much with girls. I had sleepovers, and explored old industrial ruins, and climbed trees. I also loved reading science fiction books and watch movies with big explosions in them.

                      And in the middle of all that I also realized some of the other boys excited me, and I wasn't interested in the girls in the same way.

                      All of that is true. However, when talking to these self-imagined psychologists, and mention any flaws or bad experiences prior to that moment, suddenly they'll nod and 'of course', as if that time when the bullies caught me and rough housed me, or some particular defect in my father, explains what made what I am. Worse of all it casts shame on my father without reason, and I'm kinda afraid that it creates an environment where having a son that's gay, becomes a mark of shame for a father "How did he fail?" Rather than it being simple what it is, something no one is to blame for.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        These are probably decent points, but it seems to me that most of those struggling with same sex attraction know the difference between fringe lunatics like Westboro and your typical mainstream Christian. I agree though that these types do poison the well for all. I think one of the sticky points is expressing love and support, and encouragement to those who are dealing with the struggle of same sex attraction while at the same time not compromising on the fact that homosexuality is sin.
                        Oh everyone knows that the Westboro Baptist Cult, is a circus on stilts. At least I've never taken them seriously, I only feel angry on behalf of the funerals they protest at. Though I think you'd also agree that being better than the WBC, shouldn't award you a cookie.

                        And to the rest you said.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                          Another problem that I experience the few times I've confided that I'm gay to other Christians, is that quite often I find that I'm casually psychoanalysed in a way that I don't see people doing to each other in general.

                          This can range from questions such as "Are you sure you're really gay?"
                          You do realize why that is, though, right? It's mostly due to the fact that, while our society has pushed hard to normalize homosexuality, it isn't "normal". People need to make sense of it.

                          The above happened to me at Church, while waiting for the doors to open before mass, and I got into conversation with a good friend of mine. The subject had turned to marriage, and apparently some speaker he had been to had convinced him that all people ought to be married (save for monks and priests). I was a bit more hesitant, since I don't think all people are suitable for marriage, and I do believe there's such a thing as a single vocation, and finally I offered him an example of a 'friend' I knew who was homosexual and had chosen to live a life of celibacy.

                          This immediately then turned into him being extremely dubious about it, claiming that people quite often make up lies for themselves to justify their sins. It was a very coherent discussion, as I wasn't sure whether by sins he meant homosexual acts, which I had already told him my friend (me) doesn't engage in. Again for some reason it sounds me that people think celibate gay Christians are being naughty... or if you mention a gay Christian, that the assumptions is that they're *not* celibate.

                          The very idea that a gays own testimony is quickly treated as suspicious kinda bugs me.

                          I am a celibate orthodox Christian, unless there's clear evidence to the contrary, I'd like to this to be assumption. I should have to mention it in every meeting and discussion.
                          I think this ties into my question in my previous post about "what is sin?" Is only the act a sin, or is dwelling on the act also a sin? Is there a difference between temptation, and desire? It seems to me that temptation, in of itself, is not sin, but that it can lead one mentally into sin. If I lust for my friend's wife, rather than mentally noting that I find her attractive, am I committing sin? I think this is what people are commenting on when they talk about homosexuality and sin other than the actual physical act of sex.

                          Another thing a bit more toxic is when I encounter someone who thinks he's an expert why people become gay for having read this or that book by some pastor or such. Personal edification is great. And reading about it can be a fascinating topic, as long as a person is humble and skeptical about what they know.

                          An example of something I know from people like this, are where the blame is turned on my father for having raised me in such a way as to make me gay.

                          This leaves me with little to no patience or desire to be in that persons presence, and but for the grace of God I return to mass (but not to the prayer meeting where he attends). Somehow some people think its okay to repeat the pseudo-Freudian nonsense that they think explains why I'm attracted to males, by picking out weaknesses in my father, whom I'm to honour.

                          To all of you I can tell you that my father was there for me when I needed him. He raised me with good values for honesty, justice and the value of hard labour. He took me bike riding in the forest. When he learned scuba diving, he'd often invite me and a friend to the swimming hall, so we could train with scuba gear, or out on the rubber speed boat. He was a prison guard and a strong kind of guy. While there were occasions when he weren't home, such as a month or two when he was on a ship for prisoners. I have nothing but good memories with him.

                          Also I had a fairly normal childhood, aside from being an autist. No one raped me when I was little. I had other male friends, and aside from my tomboyish sister I didn't play much with girls. I had sleepovers, and explored old industrial ruins, and climbed trees. I also loved reading science fiction books and watch movies with big explosions in them.

                          And in the middle of all that I also realized some of the other boys excited me, and I wasn't interested in the girls in the same way.

                          All of that is true. However, when talking to these self-imagined psychologists, and mention any flaws or bad experiences prior to that moment, suddenly they'll nod and 'of course', as if that time when the bullies caught me and rough housed me, or some particular defect in my father, explains what made what I am. Worse of all it casts shame on my father without reason, and I'm kinda afraid that it creates an environment where having a son that's gay, becomes a mark of shame for a father "How did he fail?" Rather than it being simple what it is, something no one is to blame for.
                          A lot of that is due to the fact that for years there have been studies showing a correlation between single parent homes and homosexuality. I remember even way back in the 90s one of my gay friends explaining how this was a factor in his own life and the life of many of his gay friends. And for those of us who think that there is an environmental and spiritual dynamic to homosexuality rather than any sort of genetic correlation, this makes sense. It doesn't mean that all people struggling with same sex attraction came from bad families, or from divorced families or were molested, but it does seem to count for at least a fair number.

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                          • #28
                            Just reading my post again. There's a lot of missing words. I hope you found it readable anyway. I've caught the worst of them below here.

                            "It wasn't a very coherent discussion,"
                            "I shouldn't have to mention it in every meeting and discussion."
                            "Even my spiritual advisor, an old kind monk, has told me its better for me not to think too deeply about how I got to be this way,"
                            "However, when I'm talking to these self-imagined psychologists, and I mention any flaws "

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              You do realize why that is, though, right? It's mostly due to the fact that, while our society has pushed hard to normalize homosexuality, it isn't "normal". People need to make sense of it.
                              By normal do you mean common? That's uncontroversial. Of course its common, and likely has always been that way. Its only been recent that you didn't get unChristianly pummeled if you revealed it. There's nothing to suggest that it was any rarer in the past, than in the present.

                              And why is it then okay to ask me if I'm really gay, as I'm not quite aware of that myself? First of all Adrift, I find it both demeaning and kinda invasive. My word should be enough for you. All I should be able to tell anyone is that I'm gay, and celibate, and after that they should have no further questions to ask.

                              I think this ties into my question in my previous post about "what is sin?" Is only the act a sin, or is dwelling on the act also a sin? Is there a difference between temptation, and desire? It seems to me that temptation, in of itself, is not sin, but that it can lead one mentally into sin. If I lust for my friend's wife, rather than mentally noting that I find her attractive, am I committing sin? I think this is what people are commenting on when they talk about homosexuality and sin other than the actual physical act of sex.
                              Lust is a sin. Feeling homosexual attraction is not a sin, unless you dwell on it or seek it out. Same goes for heterosexual attraction, which is licit if and only if it's between a man and a woman in a state of matrimony.

                              And for those of us who think that there is an environmental and spiritual dynamic to homosexuality rather than any sort of genetic correlation, this makes sense. It doesn't mean that all people struggling with same sex attraction came from bad families, or from divorced families or were molested, but it does seem to count for at least a fair number.
                              There's a couple of things to take home. First of all, just because the environment and spiritual can affect ones sexuality, it can still be quite beyond your control. One of the greatest environments that shaped you was your mother's womb, and any number of effects could have happened to you there, none of which could be controlled for, but is just one of many results of living in a fallen world.

                              Personally I don't think there's any clear explanation yet; Genes, environments (womb, childhood, teens), outside influences and inspiration, demonic activity, etc... Could be any of them, all of them, none of them. Until something clear emerges that actually convinces the scientific community at large, then I'll treat whatever homebrew, armchair, mam&pap theory of gayness with about the same conviction as I treat theories about aliens on other worlds. Interesting, but I'm not buying it.

                              At any rate, in me, it showed up back when the world was by all accounts pretty good. I lived in a suburb, in a stable middle-class family, with good friends. I think this should be the presumption whenever you encounter someone gay. One of my friends who is gay lives in the US, his father is an admiral and he comes from an upstanding family, and he's successful software developer, living in a monogamous relationship. Another I know lives in a city north of here, and is another of my geeky friends. Among the many gay friends I have some do come from broken homes, but you know what, so do many of my straight Christian friends.

                              People want a simple explanation that they can seek out to rationalize their situation and point a finger of blame somewhere. However this shouldn't be the first instinct. And unless you're a trained psychologist, and most Christians (even well-meaning apologists) aren't.

                              I don't go digging at you for your childhood experiences, and whether you mother is to blame or not if I find something out of the ordinary with you?
                              Last edited by Leonhard; 07-28-2016, 01:53 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                By normal do you mean common? That's uncontroversial. Of course its common, and likely has always been that way. Its only been recent that you didn't get unChristianly pummeled if you revealed it. There's nothing to suggest that it was any rarer in the past, than in the present.

                                And why is it then okay to ask me if I'm really gay, as I'm not quite aware of that myself? First of all Adrift, I find it both demeaning and kinda invasive. My word should be enough for you. All I should be able to tell anyone is that I'm gay, and celibate, and after that they should have no further questions to ask.
                                It's not common. Some people can go their whole life without knowing a gay person, or having known they that they knew a gay person. Statistics are all over the place, but in most nations surveys estimate that people struggling with same sex attraction make up only between 1% to not much more than 4% of a population. But I also meant "normal" in the sense that it is not natural from God's intended purpose for mankind. People, as a rule, need to make sense of things that are not normal in their environments. That's just the way things are. By telling you this I'm not judging whether it's a good thing or not, I'm simply sharing with you the "why".


                                Lust is a sin. Feeling homosexual attraction is not a sin, unless you dwell on it or seek it out. Same goes for heterosexual attraction, which is licit if and only if it's between a man and a woman in a state of matrimony.

                                My thoughts exactly. I hope, though, that sort of explains why people may refer to homosexuality being sinful while they may not be necessarily referring to a physical sex act.


                                There's a couple of things to take home. First of all, just because the environment and spiritual can affect ones sexuality, it can still be quite beyond your control. One of the greatest environments that shaped you was your mother's womb, and any number of effects could have happened to you there, none of which could be controlled for, but is just one of many results of living in a fallen world.

                                Personally I don't think there's any clear explanation yet; Genes, environments (womb, childhood, teens), outside influences and inspiration, demonic activity, etc... Could be any of them, all of them, none of them. Until something clear emerges that actually convinces the scientific community at large, then I'll treat whatever homebrew, armchair, mam&pap theory of gayness with about the same conviction as I treat theories about aliens on other worlds. Interesting, but I'm not buying it.

                                At any rate, in me, it showed up back when the world was by all accounts pretty good. I lived in a suburb, in a stable middle-class family, with good friends. I think this should be the presumption whenever you encounter someone gay. One of my friends who is gay lives in the US, his father is an admiral and he comes from an upstanding family, and he's successful software developer, living in a monogamous relationship. Another I know lives in a city north of here, and is another of my geeky friends. Among the many gay friends I have some do come from broken homes, but you know what, so do many of my straight Christian friends.

                                People want a simple explanation that they can seek out to rationalize their situation and point a finger of blame somewhere. However this shouldn't be the first instinct. And unless you're a trained psychologist, and most Christians (even well-meaning apologists) aren't.

                                I don't go digging at you for your childhood experiences, and whether you mother is to blame or not if I find something out of the ordinary with you?
                                Understood, but as I explain above, people need to understand why things are out of the ordinary. I'm willing to bet that if you found something out of the ordinary with me, you'd probably make guesses about why I do that out of the ordinary thing. Richard Carrier claims to be polyamorous. Very few people are going to shrug their shoulder and think, "huh, well that's that I suppose". Most people are going to think, "Well now, that's strange. What is it in his life that makes him claim to be polyamorous?" That's just how people are. They want to know why things are out of place, and to get angry or upset at people for wanting to make sense of their world is, in my opinion, quite unfair.

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