Biblical Myth vs Biblical Fact

[Seasanctuary]

As revealed in the YEC thread, a decent portion of Christians on this forum believe part of their Bible to be myth and some of their Bible to be fact. I would like to explore this myth/fact breakdown more closely in this thread.

To help discussion along, here is a short survey. Group the following events under the following four categories. (Or you can just describe the breakdown in your own way.)

Myth
Likely Myth
Likely Fact
Fact

1. Creation Story
2. Adam, Eve, and the Serpent
3. Cain & Abel
4. Genealogy from Adam to Noah.
5. The Great Flood
6. Covenant with Noah
7. Noah's sons populating the known nations
8. Tower of Babel
9. Life of Abraham
10. Covenant with Abraham
11. Life of Jacob and his sons
12. Jacob's descendants in Egypt
13. 10 Plagues of Egypt
14. 10 Commandments
15. Desert wandering
16. Military takeover of the Promised Land
17. Life of Samson
18. Life of David
19. Life of Solomon
20. Building of the First Temple
21. Babylonian Captivity
22. Cyrus' decree to return and rebuild the Temple
23. Jesus conceived within a virgin
24. Jesus born in Bethlehem, due to census instructions
25. Jesus and family fled to Egypt
26. John the Baptist baptizes Jesus with special results
27. Miraculous healing of Jesus
28. Demon exorcisms of Jesus
29. Execution of Jesus by Pilate's order
30. Guarding of Jesus' tomb by Roman soldiers
31. Resurrection of Jesus
32. Water walking, fish eating, and locked room entering of Jesus
33. Bodily ascension of Jesus
34. Miraculous coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost
35. Miraculous blinding of Saul and appearance of Jesus
36. Miracles associated with Paul
37. Missionary journeys of Paul

[FlimFlamboyant]

Fact.

Of course, I'm not really in to the whole myth thing.

[Seasanctuary]

I hypothesize that Christians will consider anything connected to the overarching historical-sounding narrative to be fact until it is proven non-fact by knowledge gained outside the Bible.

However, I also predict disagreement on where to draw the lines because opinions will differ on which other assertions are too connected to the considered-myth portions to remain confident in their fact.

I will be wrong in cases where something not in danger of being shown non-fact and independent of such passages is still considered myth or probable myth.

[John Powell]

POWELL:
For each of these add "believed by most ancient Christians to be fact" in contrast to the suggestion I'm hearing from some at TWEB that ancient Christians treated the earliest on the list as something like myths teaching a moral.

1. Creation Story, likely myth.
2. Adam, Eve, and the Serpent, likely myth.
3. Cain & Abel, likely myth.
4. Genealogy from Adam to Noah, likely myth.
5. The Great Flood, likely myth based loosely on some factual event such as the flooding of the Black sea.
6. Covenant with Noah, likely myth.
7. Noah's sons populating the known nations, likely myth.
8. Tower of Babel, likely myth although perhaps loosely based on an actual tower.
9. Life of Abraham, likely myth.
10. Covenant with Abraham, likely myth.
11. Life of Jacob and his sons, likely myth.
12. Jacob's descendants in Egypt, likely myth.
13. 10 Plagues of Egypt, likely myth in some cases based very loosely on some factual events.
14. 10 Commandments, likely myth.
15. Desert wandering, likely myth.
16. Military takeover of the Promised Land, likely myth.
17. Life of Samson, likely myth but may have been based loosely on some real hero (think King Arthur).
18. Life of David, likely myth loosely based on a real king.
19. Life of Solomon, likely myth loosely based on a real king.
20. Building of the First Temple, likely fact.
21. Babylonian Captivity, likely fact.
22. Cyrus' decree to return and rebuild the Temple, likely fact.
23. Jesus conceived within a virgin, likely myth.
24. Jesus born in Bethlehem, due to census instructions, likely myth.
25. Jesus and family fled to Egypt, likely myth.
26. John the Baptist baptizes Jesus with special results, likely myth loosely based on a real character John the Baptist.
27. Miraculous healing of Jesus, likely myth.
28. Demon exorcisms of Jesus, likely myth.
29. Execution of Jesus by Pilate's order, likely myth relying on a real character, Pilate.
30. Guarding of Jesus' tomb by Roman soldiers, likely myth relying on real characters, Roman soldiers in Jerusalem.
31. Resurrection of Jesus, likely myth.
32. Water walking, fish eating, and locked room entering of Jesus, likely myth.
33. Bodily ascension of Jesus, likely myth.
34. Miraculous coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, likely myth.
35. Miraculous blinding of Saul and appearance of Jesus, blinding is likely myth created by the writer of Acts, but the appearance of Jesus to Paul mentioned in Galatians is probably some kind of hallucination.
36. Miracles associated with Paul, any mentioned by Paul (not those in Acts) are likely self-deluded exaggerations.
37. Missionary journeys of Paul, those described by Luke are likely made up, but those described by Paul are probably fact.

John Powell

[Amazing Rando]

"Myth" is a very loaded word these days. You likely won't get many responses until you lay out what you understand by "myth."

I for one am very hesitant to dichotomize "myth" from fact. That's an Enlightenment-spawned duality that really isn't very helpful.

[NeilUnreal]

Rando's view of myth vs. fact closely mirrors my own. Particularly that it's "...an Enlightenment-spawned duality that really isn't very helpful."

I do believe, by faith, that Jesus was the Christ, and that he lived, died, and was resurrected.

I have an opinion on most of the other things in the list too, but it's not really relevant to the way I define faith. So, I'm content to let the archaeologists, historians, et al, do their thing and let the chips fall where they may.

-Neil

[xtreem5150ahm]

Sea,

i feel strangely compelled to post, but i think my position on each of these has been made known.

Although part of me thinks you might be doing these OP's for the purpose of "whacking at a hornet's nest" for your entertainment, a different part of me actually respects you for taking the time to give an honest look at "the other side".
I personally hope my respect is the correct view.


johnny

[Leonhard]

What do you mean by myth SeaSanctuary? I'm not a scholar but let's look up webster definition of myth:

1 a: a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon b: parable, allegory
2 a: a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society <seduced by the American myth of individualism — Orde Coombs> b: an unfounded or false notion
3: a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence
4: the whole body of myths

I imagine you're using definition 3, as in something which isn't real. Though usually when I think of myth I use the 1a definition. Under the first definition Big Bang and Evolution is a myth, in as much as they explain our current biological make up, and the origin of the universe.

Aren't you really asking is 'Which of these biblical passages do you think really happened?'

[mig_killer2]

you cant say FOR SURE that something is a myth or a fact, so my answers will instead either be "likely myth", "undecided", or "likely fact"

As revealed in the YEC thread, a decent portion of Christians on this forum believe part of their Bible to be myth and some of their Bible to be fact. I would like to explore this myth/fact breakdown more closely in this thread.

To help discussion along, here is a short survey. Group the following events under the following four categories. (Or you can just describe the breakdown in your own way.)

Myth
Likely Myth
Likely Fact
Fact

1. Creation Story

well you have to define which creation story, or more specifically, which interpretation of Genesis 1. of course, it is likely fact that God did create the universe.

2. Adam, Eve, and the Serpent

likely fact

3. Cain & Abel

likely fact

4. Genealogy from Adam to Noah.

likely fact, though many of the generations were probably skipped or forgotten.

5. The Great Flood

likely myth, but there may have been a local flood

6. Covenant with Noah

likely fact

7. Noah's sons populating the known nations

likely fact seeing as how this may have happened many thousands of years ago, but not just a few thousand like AiG claims

8. Tower of Babel

likely myth.

9. Life of Abraham
10. Covenant with Abraham
11. Life of Jacob and his sons
12. Jacob's descendants in Egypt
13. 10 Plagues of Egypt
14. 10 Commandments
15. Desert wandering
16. Military takeover of the Promised Land
17. Life of Samson
18. Life of David
19. Life of Solomon
20. Building of the First Temple
21. Babylonian Captivity
22. Cyrus' decree to return and rebuild the Temple
23. Jesus conceived within a virgin
24. Jesus born in Bethlehem, due to census instructions
25. Jesus and family fled to Egypt
26. John the Baptist baptizes Jesus with special results
27. Miraculous healing of Jesus
28. Demon exorcisms of Jesus
29. Execution of Jesus by Pilate's order
30. Guarding of Jesus' tomb by Roman soldiers
31. Resurrection of Jesus
32. Water walking, fish eating, and locked room entering of Jesus
33. Bodily ascension of Jesus
34. Miraculous coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost
35. Miraculous blinding of Saul and appearance of Jesus
36. Miracles associated with Paul
37. Missionary journeys of Paul

very likely fact between 29 and 37

[Ansgar Seraph]

Rando's and Neil's posts are similar to my understanding, as well. Among C.S. Lewis' lesser-known works is his sermon, "Myth Became Fact":

"Myth Became Fact," C.S. Lewis. Compiled into "The Grand Miracle," C.S. Lewis

The real answer of even the most "modernist" Christianity to Corineus is the same. Even assuming (which I most constantly deny) that the doctrines of historic Christianity are merely mythical, it is the myth which is the vital and nourishing element in the whole concern. Corineus wants us to move with the times. Now, we know where times move. They move away. But in religion we find something that does not move away. It is what Corineus calls the myth, that abides; it is what he calls the modern and living thought that moves away.

© source where applicable

Lewis goes on to speak of Myth as being necessary for the "tasting" of abstract ideas, a bringing the intangible into a concrete form. While Lewis (and I, to clearly establish my position) would object to calling many of the histories in Scripture pure myth, he would not separate the aspects of Myth from even the most factual accounts of Christ. Nor would he divorce Myth from Fact, as they are both tools of language that God can use (or Man can use to try to understand God).

I think Neil's decision is a wise one:

So, I'm content to let the archaeologists, historians, et al, do their thing and let the chips fall where they may.

—Sam

P.S. — As to the OP, I personally would start ascribing a historical foundation beginning somewhere around Abraham, increasing in historicity through the Pauline missions. Still, even within the Epistles and the Gospels, some legends are bound to have crept into the texts.

[saladfingers]

I have never understood why many Christians think that if something is myth, it loses it's transformative power.

[Seasanctuary]

Seriously people, would SOMEONE please tell me which pair of words to use to distinguish between something which actually, literally, really, truly, factually occurred in the past and something which did not?

It seems every pair I try there is an effort to deny the distinction instead.

Or is not making the distinction important for maintaining Christian faith these days?

[Seasanctuary]

Aren't you really asking is 'Which of these biblical passages do you think really happened?'

Gee, I don't know. Can we really deny the reality of mythology? The impact of mythology can be real so it must be real.

Did the ancients make this distinction? Probably one of them thar modern ideas we need to discard to approach the Bible on its own terms.

(No, I'm not being serious.)

[FlimFlamboyant]

How about fact or fiction? I always thought "myth" was kind of a dumb word, anyway. It's one of those words that people like to use when they refer to a work of fiction, but don't want to come straight out and say that, because it sounds bad.

[Seasanctuary]

How about fact or fiction?

Works for me.