They Are Going After The Churches:

[The Thinker]

Well I have had tons of threads on political correctness on this site and I don't remember you ever joining in.

You have selective memory. You've even forgot that I refuted your views on morality and yet you still peddle the nonsense that god gives us objective morality over and over.

[Sparko]

I'm very critical.

There. FIFY

[seer]

You have selective memory. You've even forgot that I refuted your views on morality and yet you still peddle the nonsense that god gives us objective morality over and over.

What are you taking about? That was not even my point - I said I have done a number of threads on PC here and you never joined in. BTW - you only refuted my view in your own mind.

[The Thinker]

There. FIFY

Go back to crying over your loss of Christian privilege.

[The Thinker]

What are you taking about? That was not even my point - I said I have done a number of threads on PC here and you never joined in. BTW - you only refuted my view in your own mind.

Never joined in? No that's not true. Only the things I say bad against you stay in your memory.

BTW you lost the entire debate on morality...anyone can see it.

[Adrift]

Never joined in? No that's not true. Only the things I say bad against you stay in your memory.

BTW you lost the entire debate on morality...anyone can see it.

No he hasn't.

[seer]

BTW you lost the entire debate on morality...anyone can see it.

How so? Remember I agreed that God's moral law was subjective to Him, but that His moral nature is objective to humankind.

[seer]

That's not the issue in the post. The issue, it is claimed, is that churches are being forced to accept transgender bathroom laws. If that's not Ok, then so are the 10 commandments being on government property, or teaching creationism in school, or having Christian prayers lead by school staff in public schools, or forcing people to attend AA meetings where they're forced to acknowledge a god exists, or county judges refusing to marry a secular couple.

Well in none of those cases is anyone FORCED by law to to act against their conscience. Remember I was in school when we did have school prayer - no one was forced to join in. And in AA or NA your higher power can be anything you wish it to be - the non-believer will often use the group as a whole as her higher power. But the fact is that 12 step programs have a much higher recover rate than more main stream programs. And even if you are court mandated to go you are not required to believe in a god to stay or get sober.

[The Thinker]

How so? Remember I agreed that God's moral law was subjective to Him, but that His moral nature is objective to humankind.

You failed to avoid the trilemma, and by your logic, Adolph Hitler's moral nature is objective to humankind. You haven't been able to distinguish a deep meaning to "objective to humankind."

[The Thinker]

Well in none of those cases is anyone FORCED by law to to act against their conscience. Remember I was in school when we did have school prayer - no one was forced to join in. And in AA or NA your higher power can be anything you wish it to be - the non-believer will often use the group as a whole as her higher power. But the fact is that 12 step programs have a much higher recover rate than more main stream programs. And even if you are court mandated to go you are not required to believe in a god to stay or get sober.

Atheistic members of AA are indeed forced to act against their conscience. The 12 steps are:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

This makes no sense when you think of your group as a higher power. In public schools children were often pressured and coerced into prayer. It took a supreme court case to strike that down. And the 10 commandments are forcing atheists to acknowledge religious laws that are incompatible with our Constitution. Would you like it if only the 5 pillars of Islam were written out on every US courthouse?

Also:

Source: http://www.npr.org/2014/03/23/291405829/with-sobering-science-doctor-debunks-12-step-recovery

There is a large body of evidence now looking at AA success rate, and the success rate of AA is between 5 and 10 percent. Most people don't seem to know that because it's not widely publicized. ... There are some studies that have claimed to show scientifically that AA is useful. These studies are riddled with scientific errors and they say no more than what we knew to begin with, which is that AA has probably the worst success rate in all of medicine.

© Copyright Original Source

[Cow Poke]

Funny how almost no one on this site has a problem when religion is being forced down the throats of Americans but the moment it's the other way around, a hissy fit ensues.

"forced down the throats"....

[Cow Poke]

I'm very critical of liberals, are you critical of conservatives?

I'm on your side - I'm very critical of liberals.

[seer]

You failed to avoid the trilemma, and by your logic, Adolph Hitler's moral nature is objective to humankind. You haven't been able to distinguish a deep meaning to "objective to humankind."

Yes I did avoid the trilemma, you even admitted it - if not which horn was I impaled on? The objective/subjective thing was never the core of my argument. So again, which horn did I remain impaled on - be specific.

[seer]

This makes no sense when you think of your group as a higher power. In public schools children were often pressured and coerced into prayer. It took a supreme court case to strike that down. And the 10 commandments are forcing atheists to acknowledge religious laws that are incompatible with our Constitution. Would you like it if only the 5 pillars of Islam were written out on every US courthouse?

First, I never saw anyone coerced to pray, it simply was not a big deal - especially for kids. Second, the Ten Commands are not inconsistent with the Founding of this Nation build on the premise that our rights came from God, and the fact that Christianity had a historical place in the American experience from the Pilgrims forward that no other Religion had. And not one Founder would have believed that prayer in School would have violated the Constitution - that came from liberal courts two hundred years later.

[NorrinRadd]

... And the 10 commandments are forcing atheists to acknowledge religious laws that are incompatible with our Constitution. Would you like it if only the 5 pillars of Islam were written out on every US courthouse?

The fact that the Ten Commandments are *displayed* does not in any way constitute an "establishment" of a particular religion, and the fact that you are "forced" to acknowledge them -- ONLY in the sense of NOTICING THEIR EXISTENCE -- does not in any way harm your free exercise of non-religion.

I have no problem with courthouses in Muslim plurality communities displaying the Five Pillars, as long as they only display them, and do not base their rulings on them.