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If Evolution is True, why do Humans need a Savior but the Great Apes do Not?

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  • Originally posted by Gary View Post

    "The trial in front of Pilate is likely historical. Brown's Death of the Messiah and Meier's A Marginal Jew, Vol. 1 make a powerful case for its authenticity, though there are some stylized elements in the gospel narrative."


    Is this a scholarly consensus, a majority opinion of scholars, or simply your opinion?
    I would contend that it's a majority opinion. There are competent scholars who have disputed its historicity, though they're likely in the minority.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by psstein View Post
      As I said, the appearance stories bespeak competing traditions.



      Yes and no. The eyewitnesses likely would've been preaching the gospel message until their deaths, whether by persecution or natural causes. This is pure guesswork here, but whatever changes were made were to adapt the message for the audience. For example, Matthew's infancy narrative (let's assume that Jesus didn't tell the disciples about his birth) is intended to display Jesus as the new Moses. This supercessionist narrative fits the concerns of the Matthean community. The gospels are not simply "our faith in Jesus," but also Greco-Roman biography. There are certain parts of the story, however, that don't exactly fit the needs of the community nor of earlier Judaism (what's called the criterion of dissimilarity).



      I disagree. We actually know a little bit about what Mark believed about appearances. Mark believed that Jesus appeared to his disciples in Galilee, as is portended in Mark 16:7. He betrays knowledge of a Galilean appearance tradition. Again, I think there are better reasons for Mark's lack of appearances than simply "Mark didn't know of the later appearance traditions." As I said earlier in the thread, Mark's gospel has a ridiculously fast pace. It's the shortest gospel by far and uses fairly simple Greek. The ending of Mark is somewhat of a mystery to me- perhaps he assumed that the reader would fill in the gaps.



      Certain elements of the empty tomb are certainly embellished (e.g. Jesus is buried in Joseph's personal tomb, which has never been used before, etc.). However, historically speaking, the burial narrative is rather in keeping with what we know about Jewish burial practices. In terms of theological embellishment, I don't think so, and here's why: the empty tomb seems to be a cornerstone of the early Resurrection faith. The apostles seem to have believed, despite every disposition, that Jesus had truly risen bodily from the dead. See the kerygmatic statement in Acts 10:39-43. While Luke does occasionally make up material for speeches, this speech likely has an authentic core.
      "the empty tomb seems to be a cornerstone of the early Resurrection faith. The apostles seem to have believed, despite every disposition, that Jesus had truly risen bodily from the dead."

      I agree that an empty grave seems to be the cornerstone of the early Resurrection belief, but what evidence is there for an early, empty rock tomb belief? There is no mention in Paul's epistles of a "rock" tomb only a presumed "grave" as one must be in a grave of some sort to be "buried" and then "raised up" .

      It is therefore possible and consistent with Paul's writings that Jesus' body was "buried" in an unmarked dirt trench, along with other persons executed that week, covered over, and forgotten. Shortly thereafter, some of Jesus' followers had experiences which led them to believe that Jesus had appeared to them in a bodily form and therefore that he had been bodily resurrected. They therefore believed that the grave of Jesus was empty because they had (they believed) seen his resurrected body, not because they had been given the opportunity to inspect an actual grave for a missing corpse.

      This isn't my invented theory, it is what Ehrman thinks probably happened.
      Last edited by Gary; 07-19-2016, 11:45 PM.

      Comment


      • Lol...and this has more to do with the price of tea in China than my views? Ooookay. Peace out.
        Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

        Comment


        • Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
          Lol...and this has more to do with the price of tea in China than my views? Ooookay. Peace out.
          Gary's approach is an "everything and the kitchen sink" one.

          Comment


          • Gary, "God made man from the dust of the Earth" So lets pretend that passage is NOT literal and he used evolution and man evolved from bacterial specimens to our ancestors. At one point a Bipedal great ape he chose to give "an immortal" soul too. hence man came from the dust of the earth. Given that I don't believe that the days mentioned in genesis are literal, what part of that is not consistent with Evolution of human kind? Or are you so stuck in your ways you cannot possibly believe a Christian can be a TE
            A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
            George Bernard Shaw

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
              Gary, "God made man from the dust of the Earth" So lets pretend that passage is NOT literal and he used evolution and man evolved from bacterial specimens to our ancestors. At one point a Bipedal great ape he chose to give "an immortal" soul too. hence man came from the dust of the earth. Given that I don't believe that the days mentioned in genesis are literal, what part of that is not consistent with Evolution of human kind? Or are you so stuck in your ways you cannot possibly believe a Christian can be a TE
              Here is scientific proof that scientist don't believe in evolution. They claim we are made from, get this, Stardust! That means that they don't believe in evolution, right? http://www.physics.org/article-questions.asp?id=52

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                Gary, "God made man from the dust of the Earth" So lets pretend that passage is NOT literal and he used evolution and man evolved from bacterial specimens to our ancestors. At one point a Bipedal great ape he chose to give "an immortal" soul too. hence man came from the dust of the earth. Given that I don't believe that the days mentioned in genesis are literal, what part of that is not consistent with Evolution of human kind? Or are you so stuck in your ways you cannot possibly believe a Christian can be a TE
                Do you believe that God made man in his image?

                "Or are you so stuck in your ways you cannot possibly believe a Christian can be a TE."

                I started the thread to understand what "TE' ers" think. Do you believe in TE?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                  I started the thread to understand what "TE' ers" think.
                  No you didn't. You started a thread with the opinion that any answer given would be spin. You don't care about what anyone here has to say.

                  Comment


                  • I agree with adrift. You don't really care what a Theistic Evolutionist like me thinks. You just want to take my belief and screw it up to a point where you say I can't possibly be a TE because I believe God Used evolution and the Genesis Creation story is Hebrew Poetry, as a narrative that tells a story but not the entire way the Universe was formed. I personally believe God (I am a theist) used evolution to form the universe and everything in it. That is not inconsistent with Scripture despite what some people say and no matter how you want to spin it.
                    So why do great apes not "need" a savior? Well first of all if animals are going to be in heaven they are not of intelligence to be accountable for their actions. We as humans are the only primate to grasp the difference between right and wrong. Why God chose to give us Homo Sapien sapien's that kind of responsibility I don't know but that's it. period. and so we're going to give an account of our actions. animals which act on instinct and not on choice will not.
                    A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                    George Bernard Shaw

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                      I agree with adrift. You don't really care what a Theistic Evolutionist like me thinks. You just want to take my belief and screw it up to a point where you say I can't possibly be a TE because I believe God Used evolution and the Genesis Creation story is Hebrew Poetry, as a narrative that tells a story but not the entire way the Universe was formed. I personally believe God (I am a theist) used evolution to form the universe and everything in it. That is not inconsistent with Scripture despite what some people say and no matter how you want to spin it.
                      So why do great apes not "need" a savior? Well first of all if animals are going to be in heaven they are not of intelligence to be accountable for their actions. We as humans are the only primate to grasp the difference between right and wrong. Why God chose to give us Homo Sapien sapien's that kind of responsibility I don't know but that's it. period. and so we're going to give an account of our actions. animals which act on instinct and not on choice will not.
                      You are very wrong if you believe that great apes have no understanding of right and wrong. Great apes, as do humans and all other primates, have rules of behavior for members of the troupe/group. Violations of these behaviors can bring about severe punishments. A member of a chimpanzee group may readily kill an infant of another troupe but never do such a thing in his troupe. Why? Morality?

                      Morality is nothing more than the established rules of the herd/troupe and the emotions that result from violating those rules. I can put up some primate videos if you do not believe me.

                      Last edited by Gary; 07-20-2016, 03:08 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                        You are very wrong if you believe that great apes have no understanding of right and wrong. Great apes, as do humans and all other primates, have rules of behavior for members of the troupe/group. Violations of these behaviors can bring about severe punishments. A member of a chimpanzee group may readily kill an infant of another troupe but never do such a thing in his troupe. Why? Morality?

                        Morality is nothing more than the established rules of the herd/troupe and the emotions that result from violating those rules. I can put up some primate videos if you do not believe me.
                        wrong.

                        Morality is "right and wrong" not just following rules. That is how we can say things like Saddam Hussein killing all those Kurds was wrong and immoral, even though his soldiers were just following his "rules"

                        Apes have no sense of right and wrong like that. They don't understand right from wrong on an abstract level. They are amoral. If a great ape escaped the zoo and killed you, do you think it would get a trial? They might put it down for being dangerous, but it would not be punished for murdering you. It did not know it was murdering you. It might know it was killing you but that is not the same thing.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          wrong.

                          Morality is "right and wrong" not just following rules. That is how we can say things like Saddam Hussein killing all those Kurds was wrong and immoral, even though his soldiers were just following his "rules"

                          Apes have no sense of right and wrong like that. They don't understand right from wrong on an abstract level. They are amoral. If a great ape escaped the zoo and killed you, do you think it would get a trial? They might put it down for being dangerous, but it would not be punished for murdering you. It did not know it was murdering you. It might know it was killing you but that is not the same thing.
                          If a chimpanzee kills a member of his own troupe, he may not get a "trial", but he will most likely receive a summary judgment by the judge and jury (the dominant male or males of the troupe): banishment or death.

                          Here is a fascinating video involving recent scientific research on morality in primates. You will find some of it shocking and if you watch until the last scene, you will be rewarded with something about primate behavior that is not only shocking but hilarious.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                            If a chimpanzee kills a member of his own troupe, he may not get a "trial", but he will most likely receive a summary judgment by the judge and jury (the dominant male or males of the troupe): banishment or death.

                            Here is a fascinating video involving recent scientific research on morality in primates. You will find some of it shocking and if you watch until the last scene, you will be rewarded with something about primate behavior that is not only shocking but hilarious.

                            I dont have time to watch a 16 minute video right now. but people tend to see "moral" actions in animals because of projection. but the animals are not acting out of actual moral considerations. We see faces everywhere too, but that doesnt mean there really is a face in the clouds or on the moon or mars.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              I dont have time to watch a 16 minute video right now. but people tend to see "moral" actions in animals because of projection. but the animals are not acting out of actual moral considerations. We see faces everywhere too, but that doesnt mean there really is a face in the clouds or on the moon or mars.
                              The experts say you don't know what you are talking about. Are you yourself an expert? Are you a primate biologist? Mammalian biologist? Biologist? Do you have a BS degree in any scientific field?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                                The experts say you don't know what you are talking about. Are you yourself an expert? Are you a primate biologist? Mammalian biologist? Biologist? Do you have a BS degree in any scientific field?
                                Gary, you've really overshot on this, man. I agree evolution is a difficulty for Christianity, especially for Christians who deny it, but this is no way to get that across.

                                Comment

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