Does God take pleasure in punishing the wicked?

[Lili]

These verses say he does:

B]Deuteronomy 28:63[/B]
Just as it pleased the Lord to prosper you and make you increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you.

Psalm 135:6-8

6 The LORD does whatever pleases him,in the heavens and on the earth,in the seas and all their depths.
7 He makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth;he sends lightning with the rain and brings out the wind from his storehouses. 8 He struck down the firstborn of Egypt, the firstborn of men and animals.9 He sent his signs and wonders into your midst, O Egypt, against Pharaoh and all his servants. 10 He struck down many nations and killed mighty kings- 11 Sihon king of the Amorites, Og king of Bashan and all the kings of Canaan-

These verses say he does not:

B][U]Ezekiel 18:23U][/B]

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Lamentations 3:31-33

31 For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. 32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. 33 For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men.

[5Pointer]

This sermon helped me as well as others that go into it deeper. http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceL..._That_He_Does/

Hope that helps.

[Lili]

I disagree with the main point of that article, which is that God never does anything that displeases him. In addition to the couple I mentioned above, there are other places in the Bible that say God grieved over something he did.

For example:

Jeremiah 42:9-10

9 He said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, to whom you sent me to present your petition, says: 10 'If you stay in this land, I will build you up and not tear you down; I will plant you and not uproot you, for I am grieved over the disaster I have inflicted on you.

1 Chronicles 21:15

15 And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But as the angel was doing so, the LORD saw it and was grieved because of the calamity and said to the angel who was destroying the people, "Enough! Withdraw your hand." The angel of the LORD was then standing at the threshing floor of Araunah [a] the Jebusite.


Micah 1:6-8 (New International Version)

6 "Therefore I will make Samaria a heap of rubble, a place for planting vineyards. I will pour her stones into the valley and lay bare her foundations. 7 All her idols will be broken to pieces; all her temple gifts will be burned with fire; I will destroy all her images. Since she gathered her gifts from the wages of prostitutes, as the wages of prostitutes they will again be used." 8 Because of this I will weep and wail; I will go about barefoot and naked. I will howl like a jackal and moan like an owl.

[Mountain Man]

I think there is a distinction between finding something pleasing and finding it pleasurable. The former means that the thing is agreeable (i.e. "If it pleases the court...") while the latter means to derive enjoyment from it. So looking at your scriptural examples, God finds it agreeable to punish the wicked, but he does not find it enjoyable.

[Lili]

The same Hebrew word is used in Psalm 135:6 and Ezekiel 18:23. In addition, the word in Deuteronomy 28:63 means to make mirth, rejoice, be glad.

Deuteronomy 28:63
Just as it pleased the Lord to prosper you and make you increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you.

[Mountain Man]

Words tend to have a range of meanings dependent on context. It's also worth noting that there is a Hebrew word for "pleasure" (chaphets, חפץ) that appears in Ezekiel 18:23 and Psalm 135:6 but is not used in the other verses you presented (that word is suws, שוש).

So, again, while it pleases/is agreeable to the Lord to punish the wicked, he does not find it pleasurable.

[Lili]

But the word in Deuteronomy does mean to rejoice/make mirth. How is that different than pleasure?

[FlimFlamboyant]

I think there is a distinction between finding something pleasing and finding it pleasurable. The former means that the thing is agreeable (i.e. "If it pleases the court...") while the latter means to derive enjoyment from it. So looking at your scriptural examples, God finds it agreeable to punish the wicked, but he does not find it enjoyable.

That was my first thought as well. I had a look at the Hebrew, however, and found the following:

(Deu 28:63) And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

In both cases, the word is the same; śûś śîyś, which, according to Strong's, means:

A primitive root; to be bright, that is, cheerful: - be glad, X greatly, joy, make mirth, rejoice.

Now, out of the 27 times this word appears in the OT, this is the only time it is used in reference to an act of punishment.

In the Psalm 135 case, we have this:

(Psa 135:6) Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.


Here, the word is "khaw-fates'", which is:

A primitive root; properly to incline to; by implication (literally but rarely) to bend; figuratively to be pleased with, desire: - X any at all, (have, take) delight, desire, favour, like, move, be (well) pleased, have pleasure, will, would.

That certainly leaves a lot more room to assume an attitude of contentment with a particular outcome, or in this particular case, simply the desire to do something, not necessarily implying any motive beyond that. It could, of course, go either way, depending on the context.

Lam 3:33 is another word entirely, indicating an emotional response.

While Deu 28:63 does use a word that implies an emotional response, it's a very isolated incident, being the only place where the word is used in such a way. That, along with the fact it appears twice in the verse; the first time in reference to a positive thing, the second time in reference to a negative thing, leads me to think that it's likely a literary device, rather than a literal statement.

[Mountain Man]

That, along with the fact it appears twice in the verse; the first time in reference to a positive thing, the second time in reference to a negative thing, leads me to think that it's likely a literary device, rather than a literal statement.

This also occurred to me and is probably the better explanation. I was trying to explain what the author really meant (that God would not actually find it enjoyable to punish the Israelites) but I neglected to explain why he wrote the way he did.

[Lili]

While Deu 28:63 does use a word that implies an emotional response, it's a very isolated incident, being the only place where the word is used in such a way. That, along with the fact it appears twice in the verse; the first time in reference to a positive thing, the second time in reference to a negative thing, leads me to think that it's likely a literary device, rather than a literal statement.

I don't see why the fact that it is used twice in the sentence implies that the statement is not literal. It is simply saying that there will be a reversal in God's action toward's Israel. Whereas previously he took pleasure in doing good to Israel, he will now take pleasure in their destruction because they have disobeyed him.

[FlimFlamboyant]

I don't see why the fact that it is used twice in the sentence implies that the statement is not literal. It is simply saying that there will be a reversal in God's action toward's Israel. Whereas previously he took pleasure in doing good to Israel, he will now take pleasure in their destruction because they have disobeyed him.

Well, that distinction is kinda what I'm getting at. There has been more than one occasion where I've told my daughter something to the effect of, "If you obey me, I'll be happy to reward you. If you disobey me, I'll be happy to punish you". Of course I don't literally mean that I'll derive happiness from punishing her, you know what I mean?

If that particular Hebrew word were used in that way more than once out of 27 times, I might be inclined to think otherwise. That's not the case, however, and that's not even including the many places throughout the scriptures that indicate that God strongly prefers not to punish people (when he doesn't have to). The odds are rather stacked against the alternative here.

[5Pointer]

I disagree with the main point of that article, which is that God never does anything that displeases him. In addition to the couple I mentioned above, there are other places in the Bible that say God grieved over something he did.

However in Psalm 135:6 it says- Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

I see those grieving verses the same way I see disciplining my children. I don't like spanking my son, it grieves me. However it is needed, it will do him well in the future, so in a sense I took delight in the fact that I'm teaching him something.

[Jon_Day]

Perhaps God simply takes pleasure from anything and everything that he does..."good" or "bad". Perhaps the pleasure doesn't derive specifically from the "calamity"...but rather from the fact that there is something occurring...and in some cases that occurrence may very well be calamity. Sort of like the idea of being able to derive pleasure from pain, as it is an affirmation of existence. I have read nowhere that claims that God does not require existential fulfillment. An artist may create something from pain, and it is the creation...not the pain itself which brings the pleasure.

[Lili]

I have another question about this topic. As I stated above, Ezekiel 18:23,32 and 33:11 say that God does not want the wicked to die, but rather, he wants them to turn from their wicked ways to live.

However, there are some verses that appear to be saying that God made some people disobey his will because he wanted to destroy him. Here are some of them:

Deuteronomy 2:30

30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the LORD your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done.

According to Deut 2:33-34, Sihon and his army, as well as all the inhabitants of Heshbon were all killed.


1 Samuel 2:25

25 If a man sins against another man, God [a] may mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who will intercede for him?" His (Eli's) sons, however, did not listen to their father's rebuke, for it was the LORD's will to put them to death.

Joshua 11:19-20

19There was not a city which made peace with the sons of Israel except (A)the Hivites living in Gibeon; they took them all in battle.

20(B)For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might (C)utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

[FlimFlamboyant]

I have another question about this topic. As I stated above, Ezekiel 18:23,32 and 33:11 say that God does not want the wicked to die, but rather, he wants them to turn from their wicked ways to live.

Right. But if they don't.......

However, there are some verses that appear to be saying that God made some people disobey his will because he wanted to destroy him. Here are some of them:

Deuteronomy 2:30

30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the LORD your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done.

According to Deut 2:33-34, Sihon and his army, as well as all the inhabitants of Heshbon were all killed.

Heshbon was a city of the Amorites. Exodus has this to say about them:

(Exo 23:23,24) For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

They were steeped in idolatry, and apparently, God wasn't too impressed with their works, either. I think their fate was sealed in the mind of God well before Israel showed up.

The same goes for the sons of Eli:

(1Sa 2:12) Now the sons of Eli were sons of Belial; they knew not the LORD.

"Belial", literally translated, comes out to "worthless". These were some pretty nasty fellows, as the chapter goes on to explain.

19There was not a city which made peace with the sons of Israel except (A)the Hivites living in Gibeon; they took them all in battle.

20(B)For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might (C)utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Yeah, the Hivites. Again, see Exodus 23:23,24 above. In all of these cases, God hardened the hearts of men who had already turned away from him. Now, you might argue that they may not have done what they did to get themselves killed if God hadn't done that, but they'd still be idolaters, and God wasn't going to stand for that.