For Eastern Orthodox: Heterodox Salvation?

[JonLanceBarker]

So all boils down to what is Church! As usual! Who and How defines Church do we have Holy Spirit revealed it to us ?

Yes Shaz, but we're not talking about "what is Church," are we?

[Maxentius]

Jezz,

Apparently I am off topic. So, to avoid further hijacking of this thread I suppose my utterly devastating response to you will have to wait for another time.

[Jawa Man]

Jezz - the saints I meant were ones like St. Isaac the Syrian or the Arian Goth martyrs, who did live after the Body of Christ was established. I think it's possible based on this that at death, we are joined to the Body of Christ, rather than at the Resurrection. This also makes sense because at death, those destined for Hell will experience a foretaste, meaning they have cut themselves off from God (at least from their perspective).

[Rdr. Arsenios]

It is a scenario to explain how someone manifestly not in the Church by EO lights can none the less be saved. A "We don't know, it is in God's hands" sans theories is leaving it to God,not speculations about what God might do.

Ro 9:15
For he saith to Moses,
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy ,
and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

And more directly, yes, of course there is salvation outside the Orthodox Church...
God will have mercy on whom He WILL have mercy...

But IF you understand salvation on this earth as having by grace what Christ had by His divine nature, then you have to show this salvation as the exercise of apostolic powers... The Orthodox have saints manifesting these powers in every generation... Finding even one Lutheran walking in the wonder-working power of the Holy Spirit is problematic... But this, of course, means that salvation is oneness with and within God by grace... Where the passing shadow of Peter and Paul would bring healing to the sick... The Orthodox continue to have this kind of Christianity to this day... A visible one is St. John Maximovich. http://members.tripod.com/~shtyetz_j...n-sanfran.html

Finding THIS kind of salvation outside Orthodoxy is getting really hard these days, don't you agree?
It is several light years beyond mere doctrine and sacrament, yes?
This is participation IN the Divine Nature...

Ontological participation by actual flesh and blood persons walking upon this earth...

But it ain't cheep...

And you can't buy it...

Arsenios

[Maxentius]

George,

Ro 9:15
For he saith to Moses,
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy ,
and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

And more directly, yes, of course there is salvation outside the Orthodox Church...
God will have mercy on whom He WILL have mercy...

So far so good. What I objected to is the elaborate system of Christ grafting people into the Church after death.

But IF you understand salvation on this earth as having by grace what Christ had by His divine nature, then you have to show this salvation as the exercise of apostolic powers... The Orthodox have saints manifesting these powers in every generation... Finding even one Lutheran walking in the wonder-working power of the Holy Spirit is problematic...

You are simply wrong. Not only have I seen miraculous healings through the prayers of my congregation, a former pastor of mine seems to have had the gift of healing.

Really, Goerge, you should stop acting like you know what you are about when addressing Lutheranism, or I daresay any belief outside of Orthodox.

But this, of course, means that salvation is oneness with and within God by grace...

I only know of salvation in the mercy of in and through Jesus Christ. I know from the testimony of his Apostles that I am a sinner, and I need a Savior. this Savior, Jesus Christ, the God-man, daily refreshes me with his gracious gifts through the ministry of the Church. "Oneness with God's energies" seems more like a philosophical proposition than Apostolic doctrine. Finally, whether God deigns to show me miracles or not does not concern me, for I have Christ as my Savior.

Where the passing shadow of Peter and Paul would bring healing to the sick...

Where a crippled pastor could lay his hands on someone and they are cured...

I will not comment on the multiple miracles claimed by the RCC after the Great Schism...

So, like AS, if we are to determine the True Church™ through witnessing miracles, we are once again thrown back on our own reasoning powers, aren't we?

Finding THIS kind of salvation outside Orthodoxy is getting really hard these days, don't you agree?

Actually, I disagree.

It is several light years beyond mere doctrine and sacrament, yes?
This is participation IN the Divine Nature...

Ontological participation by actual flesh and blood persons walking upon this earth...

I am not sure what you mean by these Byzantine scholastic terms.

I prefer the Apostolic doctrine that we are saved by grace through faith, and that this faith is the gift of God. I also believe Christ when he said that those of us who have not seen him raised and yet believe are blessed, that those who believe and are baptized will be saved. I also think the center of our theology is the cross, and not spectacular events which "prove" that one is sent from God. Even Pharaoh's priests could make sticks into snakes after all. This is not to disparage miracles, but only to show that they don't really prove much, unless God is specifically doing something revelatory--like the Resurrection of Jesus Christ or the Seven Plagues or the contest with the priests of Baal.

But it ain't cheep...

And you can't buy it...

That's right, the selling of indulgences is a grave sin.

[maudman]

George,

That's right, the selling of indulgences is a grave sin.

Grave? We gather in his name!

MDN

[Shazard]

Grave? We gather in his name!

MDN

That doesn't mean you are sinless! And because you gather in His Name you can count on his Grace and forgiveness!

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Grave? We gather in his name!

MDN

Gravity is a grave matter...



A

[Jezz]

So far so good. What I objected to is the elaborate system of Christ grafting people into the Church after death.

Elaborate???!!! Given that you described the "system" accurately and succinctly in eight words ("Christ grafting people into the Church after death"), how on earth do you justify the assertion that this "system" is "elaborate"? Next thing you'll be claiming that the "system" wherein "The Virgin Mary is the mother of God" is "elaborate", too! After all, that's a whole eight (8) words too!

You may disagree with this belief Max, that's fine. But to call it "elaborate" is exaggerating to the point of blatant misrepresentation.

[Verdantbents]

Why hello barker!

[JonLanceBarker]

Why hello barker!

Hullo again, Bek!!

[mitzi]

I posted this in the "What Are Some of the Best Arguments?" thread recently, and decided I'd start my own thread with this thought.

Orthodox peeps...how do the heterodox stand with the Church, in terms of salvation?

Short of conversion to Orthodoxy, that is.

Is it a "We know where the Church is, but don't always know where it isn't" kind of deal?

Or is it some other explanation?

(Protestants/Catholics, feel free to post here after the first few Orthodox answers.)

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