Until we all become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the Fullness of the Stature of Christ

[Glenn P]

Correct. Apostolic teaching that has been recorded as scripture is God's Word and contains no errors nor does it contradict itself. "The scripture cannot be broken," Jesus said.
Outside of their roles under the anointing and in the scriptures they produced, they were as you and I, capable of doubt and fear and sin. That is why John wrote in 1st John 1:8 that 'we' including them, must not say 'we have no sin.'

OK, so - when using the revelatory gift = infallible. Other times = fallible. That's good. We agree.

No, it would not be revelation. There is something related to this that many Christians do not know about the anointing of the Holy Spirit. There are varying 'levels' of the anointing. It can be sometimes so clear to the hearer what God is saying or showing by His Spirit. We by necessity of the perfect nature of scripture believe that when the scriptures were being written, the writers were enough under the unction of the Holy Spirit, that what they wrote is error free.

Not many Christians "know" this because you just made it up. It's not in the Bible at all.

However, when a minister is ministering, he is operating in both the natural realm and the spiritual realm at the same time. Because of that, there is a struggle between perceiving by the Holy Spirit, versus perception that is more based in natural senses and understanding. This explains how there could be less accuracy when that minister is dealing with situations that are in the natural sphere than he would know if he were writing scripture.

A minister - sure. But we are talking about people using revelatory gifts, so all this talk about a minister is moot.

It also should be evident that prophecy given while ministering and prophesying might not always be as accurate as would be the case if he was writing scripture. Therefore prophecy and prophesying must not be held to the strict standard of scriptural accuracy.

It's too late for you to say that. We've already agreed together that any revelation is infallible, or it's not revelation. If someone says something that's not true, he's not genuinely prophesying at all - he is a false prophet.

What you yourself have already accepted commits you to agreeing with this. It is inescapable.

As I said above. There are revelations that came by apostles and prophets that were considered foundational and equal to scripture.

And as agreed abaove - all revelation is infallible, or it's not revelation.

On the other hand, not everything that an apostle or prophet would ever say is scripture, such as "Pass the mustard, please," at the diner table.

Right, as we have agreed already: when exercising the gift, what they say constitutes divine revelation. Like, when they are prophesying.

Was Jonah a false prophet for what he proclaimed? "Yet forty days and Nineveh will be destroyed!" did not come to pass.

No. It's called "middle knowledge." Had that city not repented, they would have been destroyed.

Situations change. People repent. Other things could change that change whether something prophesied comes to pass.

Wait, are you actually trying to excuse charismatic crazies who make outlandish false prophecies and who then blasphemously attribute that revelation to God? That is terrible. Repent.

[Sparko]

Ty, in your view can there even be any false prophets and teachers in the church today?

If so, please give me one example of such and why they are false teachers.

[TyRockwell]

Jack, Jack, Jack.
Enough of the hairsplitting. We agreed that revelation from God that is scripture is inerrant. It is like Moses in the Presence of God, with the outside world shut out. No one else could go up the mountain or even touch it. There was nothing to interfere with the communication between God and Moses.

It was similar with the other Old Testament prophets. Their strict keeping of the law kept them "set apart" so that there was complete revelation when they received what they wrote as scripture.

Read 1st Corinthians 13. The word of knowledge, the word of wisdom, and prophesying, and understanding all mysteries and all knowledge are clearly not inerrant. Paul said that in regard to those gifts, "We know in part, and we prophesy in part." (verse 9) Verse 2 of that chapter tells us it is possible to have the gifts, and faith to move mountains, but to not have love [that which is perfect in verse 10]. and "I am nothing." "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then [in perfect love] face to face [as with Moses with God]. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I am known."NKJV (verse 12)
Scripture is revelation given in the Presence of, and enveloped in, Perfect Love, God Himself. But in public ministry, simply from the fact that not all who are present are walking in perfect love, the knowledge gifts are not the same as revelation.

[TyRockwell]

Ty, in your view can there even be any false prophets and teachers in the church today?

Yes, there are false prophets and false teachers in the Church today.

If so, please give me one example of such and why they are false teachers.

I'd love to answer you on this, but on principle, because you have not answered my nearly exact questions about who you think are valid Holy Spirit filled ministries where there are miracles and healings, I will decline to answer.

You want the issue to be about persons other than the Holy Spirit.

[Sparko]

Yes, there are false prophets and false teachers in the Church today.

How can you tell if they are false prophets?

I'd love to answer you on this, but on principle, because you have not answered my nearly exact questions about who you think are valid Holy Spirit filled ministries where there are miracles and healings, I will decline to answer.

You want the issue to be about persons other than the Holy Spirit.

somehow I think you are merely dodging the question because you know it will prove yourself wrong.

[TyRockwell]

So, when a minister deceives millions by giving a prophecy, thereby hurting those people on a personal level, he is not supposed to apologize to them?

The use of the word,'deceives' implies the minister speaking something he knows to be untrue. You have no support for that implication.
You are assuming an unfounded 'hurt.' It would be like millions being supposedly 'hurt' because a minister misspoke.

Ty, first off, , and second God holds ministers to a VERY high standard because they are examples to the people. Paul urged believers to imitate him as he imitated Christ. If that in itself doesn't contain a high standard, I don't know what does. Imitating Christ and urging others to do so is a very high standard indeed.

"As I imitate Christ" means, 'when you see Christ in me, imitate it.' Paul was not saying that everything he did was exactly what Christ would do. After all, Paul also said, "The good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice." Romans 7:19

[TyRockwell]

How can you tell if they are false prophets?

By the Holy Spirit I know whether what they are foretelling is correct. Most of them are ignorantly prophecying things like a rapture, and a seven year tribulation. The main ones today are Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye, Jack van Impe and countless others. So I don't listen to them. Neither do I assign them a place with the hypocrites.

They don't know they are foretelling falsehoods, so I give them some grace, and I forgive them because they are my brothers in Christ.

There are very, very few who are intentionally leading people away from Jesus and His Truth. I don't know who any of them are, except the fundamentalist LDS.
The main false prophets are not in the Church. They are in the liberal news media, and liberal politicians, those who propose that 'solutions' can be found outside of God, in areas where people ought to seek God's solutions.

A lot of the Church has bad doctrine, but they are no less Christians, like you.

[Sparko]

By the Holy Spirit I know whether what they are foretelling is correct. Most of them are ignorantly prophecying things like a rapture, and a seven year tribulation. The main ones today are Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye, Jack van Impe and countless others. So I don't listen to them. Neither do I assign them a place with the hypocrites.

They don't know they are foretelling falsehoods, so I give them some grace, and I forgive them because they are my brothers in Christ.

There are very, very few who are intentionally leading people away from Jesus and His Truth. I don't know who any of them are, except the fundamentalist LDS.
The main false prophets are not in the Church. They are in the liberal news media, and liberal politicians, those who propose that 'solutions' can be found outside of God, in areas where people ought to seek God's solutions.

A lot of the Church has bad doctrine, but they are no less Christians, like you.

Jesus and Paul were talking about false prophets and teachers inside the church too, Ty. You said there were such in the church too. but now you are hemming and hawing and claiming that they are just mistaken and you dont know any except the fundamentalist LDS. Well Ty, the LDS are not part of the church. They are a cult.

So I ask you again. Are there any false prophets IN the church? and who are they?

[Glenn P]

Jack, Jack, Jack.
Enough of the hairsplitting. We agreed that revelation from God that is scripture is inerrant.

Go back and read our discussion more carefully. I said that if something contains errors, then it's not revelation. You agreed. I didn't mention Scripture in that claim.


So are you now withdrawing your agreement? Are you now saying that something an really be revelation from God, and also containing errors? Please explain.

[TyRockwell]

Go back and read our discussion more carefully. I said that if something contains errors, then it's not revelation. You agreed. I didn't mention Scripture in that claim.


So are you now withdrawing your agreement? Are you now saying that something an really be revelation from God, and also containing errors? Please explain.

I did answer. You apparently did not read carefully the rest of my post to you. I am saying that revelation from God has no errors. You are calling the knowledge gifts 'revelation,' though they are not. They come under the anointing impartation of the gift of prophecy.
It is not the 'foretelling' type of prophecy.
The summation: The gift of prophecy is given for edification, encouragement and comfort to the church. 1st Corinthians 14:3 By their nature these words given by unction of the Holy Spirit are conditional. If they are not received, believed and acted upon they may not come to pass.
2nd Chronicles 20:20 says, "Have faith in God and you will be upheld; have faith in his prophets and you will be successful."

Whether or not a prophecy to the Church comes to pass hangs on whether there is belief in the prophecy. This kind of prophecy and the other knowledge gifts are not the same thing as revelation.

[TyRockwell]

Jesus and Paul were talking about false prophets and teachers inside the church too, Ty. You said there were such in the church too. but now you are hemming and hawing and claiming that they are just mistaken and you dont know any except the fundamentalist LDS. Well Ty, the LDS are not part of the church. They are a cult.

So I ask you again. Are there any false prophets IN the church? and who are they?

Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jerry Jenkins, Jack VanImpe, and many others who give and teach falsehoods such as a 'rapture' and a seven year tribulation. Though some of what they proclaim didn't originate with them, they have 'seen' fulfillments and embelished their teachings with more recent 'insights.'

Others right now include Christian Zionists, and preacher/teachers who believe we ought to help Israel build another temple. Some of their followers are just deceived and not the originators of false prophecies.

[Sparko]

Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jerry Jenkins, Jack VanImpe, and many others who give and teach falsehoods such as a 'rapture' and a seven year tribulation. Though some of what they proclaim didn't originate with them, they have 'seen' fulfillments and embelished their teachings with more recent 'insights.'

Others right now include Christian Zionists, and preacher/teachers who believe we ought to help Israel build another temple. Some of their followers are just deceived and not the originators of false prophecies.

Benny Hinn teaches the Rapture and Tribulation. Does that make him a false prophet/teacher then? And Paul Crouch and Todd Bentley. They all teach the rapture and 7 year tribulation.

in fact Hinn had Hagee as a guest on his show and they agreed about the rapture:

Only a few weeks later Mar.16,2003 Hinn has John Hagee as a guest. Although Hagee is one of the more intelligent word faith teachers it does not help his integrity by appearing on the Benny Hinn program. Hinn’s interview was about what is happening in the world today with Iraq and after this war. After Hagee gives an explanation of Ex.38 and a Muslim coalition descending on Israel. He says Jesus is coming back at any time to rapture the church, that it will occur before Ez.38 “The church of Jesus Christ could be raptured in months, think about that!” Hinn agrees and says “your right scripturally” it could happen in the next 6 months or next year.
http://www.letusreason.org/b.hinn11.htm

and from the same source:

On the November 9, 1990 Praise-a-Thon, Hinn told Crouch a new revelation. “Paul, I can say this -- Are you ready for this? We may have two years before the rapture. . . Can I be blunt with ya? I don't know if we have two years left. . . I'm gonna prove to you from the Word tonight, that we have less than two years.” Crouch then told people to give because of the time element we have left.

You know what, I am not a math professor but I think more than 2 years have passed since 1990. What do you think?

....and how is it that you judge these people false teachers based on them teaching the rapture but you tell us that we should not judge anyone that you like?

I would like to learn your criteria for deciding if someone is a false teacher or not so I may use the same criteria myself. Please help me.

Thanks.

Oh and maybe you are afraid to condemn Hinn because he has cursed anyone who speaks out against his ministry?

Benny Hinn: Yes, Lord, I'll do it. I place a curse on every man and every woman that will stretch his hand against this anointing. I curse that man who dares to speak a word against this ministry. But any man and any woman that raises his or her hand in blessing towards this ministry, I bless that man. I bless that home! I bless that family.
...Benny Hinn: Under this anointing, the words I speak cannot fall to the ground. Under this anointing, everything I say, happens. (Praise The Lord, Trinity Broadcasting Network, September 10, 1999)

What do you think about someone who tries to curse his brothers in Christ who don't agree with him?




How come I haven't been cursed yet?

[Sparko]

I did answer. You apparently did not read carefully the rest of my post to you. I am saying that revelation from God has no errors. You are calling the knowledge gifts 'revelation,' though they are not. They come under the anointing impartation of the gift of prophecy.
It is not the 'foretelling' type of prophecy.

Really? Then what about all the prophesies that I have given you from Hinn (like just in my last reply about the rapture?) That sounds like the "foretelling" type of prophecy to me.

[TyRockwell]

Benny Hinn teaches the Rapture and Tribulation. Does that make him a false prophet/teacher then? And Paul Crouch and Todd Bentley. They all teach the rapture and 7 year tribulation.

in fact Hinn had Hagee as a guest on his show and they agreed about the rapture:

Only a few weeks later Mar.16,2003 Hinn has John Hagee as a guest. Although Hagee is one of the more intelligent word faith teachers it does not help his integrity by appearing on the Benny Hinn program. Hinn’s interview was about what is happening in the world today with Iraq and after this war. After Hagee gives an explanation of Ex.38 and a Muslim coalition descending on Israel. He says Jesus is coming back at any time to rapture the church, that it will occur before Ez.38 “The church of Jesus Christ could be raptured in months, think about that!” Hinn agrees and says “your right scripturally” it could happen in the next 6 months or next year.
http://www.letusreason.org/b.hinn11.htm

and from the same source:

On the November 9, 1990 Praise-a-Thon, Hinn told Crouch a new revelation. “Paul, I can say this -- Are you ready for this? We may have two years before the rapture. . . Can I be blunt with ya? I don't know if we have two years left. . . I'm gonna prove to you from the Word tonight, that we have less than two years.” Crouch then told people to give because of the time element we have left.

You know what, I am not a math professor but I think more than 2 years have passed since 1990. What do you think?

....and how is it that you judge these people false teachers based on them teaching the rapture but you tell us that we should not judge anyone that you like?

I would like to learn your criteria for deciding if someone is a false teacher or not so I may use the same criteria myself. Please help me.

Thanks.

Oh and maybe you are afraid to condemn Hinn because he has cursed anyone who speaks out against his ministry?

Benny Hinn: Yes, Lord, I'll do it. I place a curse on every man and every woman that will stretch his hand against this anointing. I curse that man who dares to speak a word against this ministry. But any man and any woman that raises his or her hand in blessing towards this ministry, I bless that man. I bless that home! I bless that family.
...Benny Hinn: Under this anointing, the words I speak cannot fall to the ground. Under this anointing, everything I say, happens. (Praise The Lord, Trinity Broadcasting Network, September 10, 1999)

What do you think about someone who tries to curse his brothers in Christ who don't agree with him?




How come I haven't been cursed yet?

It goes to show that being wrong on some points of doctrine or practice does not remove them from being used by God. I am merciful. How about you?

[Sparko]

It goes to show that being wrong on some points of doctrine or practice does not remove them from being used by God. I am merciful. How about you?

so you dont care if someone is a false teacher or a false prophet? You think that they can be such and still be listened to and followed in other matters even when they don't repent or recant their false teachings? Can a bad tree bear good fruit, Ty?

What does Jesus himself teach about such people?

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

He even goes to point out that they prophesied in HIS NAME and drove out demons and performed miracles!!!

Who does that sound like Ty? And Jesus will cast them aside.

So please, tell me again how if someone prophesies in Jesus name and heals and casts out demons that they can't be false prophets? Tell me how if they fail in their prophecies and teach false things that they can still be followed on other matters and excused their lies.

If Jesus casts out those false prophets, what should his church do to them? What will Jesus do to those who support and excuse them?