Until we all become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the Fullness of the Stature of Christ

[TyRockwell]

To all who are interested in the role of the Church in the time of The End:

There has been a huge debate going on about what direction the Church, that is, Christians are to go, and what we are to do and become in these last days.
Many are extremely skeptical about what they see in the changes that are beginning to happen in the Church. God wants the church to grow into the full measure of the stature of the Anointed One, Jesus. Ephesians 4:13
Churchianity as usual will not bring about the maturity God intends. The change God is bringing into the body of Christ is just getting started. To many it looks too different from what they expected. It looks to them as something God would not do. They do not consider that in the past God did radically unusual, unexpected and unbelieveable things to bring a big new thing to His people. In so doing, He left behind those who refused to accept the change He was bringing.
Skepticism can be either good or bad. The good skepticism wants to believe, but you had better have the goods because they will thoroughly check you out. This is the "faith of the Bereans" who resolved to listen with openness to the teachings of Paul, but checked out everything by the Scriptures. On the other hand, bad skepticism wants to doubt and will gladly accept a molehill of evidence that confirms their doubts, while rejecting a mountain of evidence to the contrary.
The question is, what will a full grown, fully mature and Anointed Church look like?
It does not look like the status quo, complacent, comfortable routines Christians have become used to.
God intends a powerfully anointed body of believers that will overcome the strategies of hell, putting principalities, powers, demons, false religions, and even governments under our feet. Those holding to a vision of the church as apostate, powerless and vulnerable, whose best hope is evacuation to heaven will not be ready, as Jesus said, for what he has given, and will give us to do. They will not be doing what he commands us to do before he returns. Things beyond loving God and our neighbors are foundational to our lives in him, but they are not all he tells us, or will tell us to do.
It may be that God will pass over the majority of a whole generation to gather their children and grandchildren together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. Matthew 23:37
The start of a new thing that God does always looked messy. That is the result of His shaking. God has been causing contractions, as in birth pains, for many years now. Some of them have produced some important steps toward maturity that the Church is still split over today. Many are still rejecting moves that God has validated, that have continued to grow and remain. Positive fruit that has remained still gets criticized as if it were a brand new heresy.
Let us all be slow to condemn the new things. Take note of what lasts, and what has lasted.
Let us heed Gamaliel's advice, in Acts 5:34-39 "Take heed to yourselves what you intend to do regarding these men..."And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it--lest you even be found to fight against God."

[Sparko]

You talk about "maturity" and yet you support preachers who run around on stage screaming and jumping around like lunatics, pushing people down and kicking old ladies in the face.

Does that sound "mature" to you?

Can you imagine Jesus doing that? Did he jump up and down screaming the sermon on the mount? Did he push people down and scream "be Healed!" ?

Did Jesus kick any old ladies in the face?
(reference to Todd Bentley of the Lakeland FL Revival that Ty was defending in another thread for anyone not getting the reference)

I see Jesus in the bible as a calm peaceful teacher. The only time he lost his temper (and I dont even think it could be called that) was when he cleared the temple grounds.

His preaching was not screaming or jumping around like a lunatic. He didn't tell people to "claim their healing" - He actually healed them. without the histrionics or theatrics of Benny Hinn, Ken Copeland, Todd Bentley, Poppoff or those other nutjobs.

Maturity indeed.

To paraphrase Todd B: "want some maturity? come and get some"

You are anything but mature, Ty.

[Amazing Rando]

I don't care to defend Todd Bentley in particular (heck, why drag that stuff from the other thread into this one?), but I thought that you of all people would have rejected the "Gentle Jesus, Meek and Mild" stereotype. And yet...

I see Jesus in the bible as a calm peaceful teacher. The only time he lost his temper (and I dont even think it could be called that) was when he cleared the temple grounds.

One example that jumps into my head right away is Mark 3:5-

Mark 3.5

He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts

The word there for "anger" is [greek]orghV[/greek], a powerful word connoting violent emotion, anger, wrath, extreme indignation, etc.

He loses his temper with the disciples quite a bit, in fact. E.g.:

Matthew 15:16

"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

Jesus was by no means placid, calm, cool as a cucumber all the time. In fact, it's his quite human displays of extreme emotions at times which make him such a compelling figure and such a complete and total Savior.

[Sparko]

I don't care to defend Todd Bentley in particular (heck, why drag that stuff from the other thread into this one?), but I thought that you of all people would have rejected the "Gentle Jesus, Meek and Mild" stereotype. And yet...



One example that jumps into my head right away is Mark 3:5-

Mark 3.5

He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts

The word there for "anger" is οργης, a powerful word connoting violent emotion, anger, wrath, extreme indignation, etc.

He loses his temper with the disciples quite a bit, in fact. E.g.:

Matthew 15:16

"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

Jesus was by no means placid, calm, cool as a cucumber all the time. In fact, it's his quite human displays of extreme emotions at times which make him such a compelling figure and such a complete and total Savior.

which is quite different than ranting and raving like a lunatic while giving sermons.

[TyRockwell]

You talk about "maturity" and yet you support preachers who run around on stage screaming and jumping around like lunatics, pushing people down and kicking old ladies in the face.

Does that sound "mature" to you?

Every new move of God starts out with 'baby steps.' Not fully developed theological position papers. John the baptist had a short, simple message. He also got quite agitated when priests and Pharisees came. He called them a "brood of vipers." I bet he looked and acted like some of the people moving with the Holy Spirit today. He was filled with the Spirit, but Jesus said, "He who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." He was speaking of new babes in Christ.

"Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath!?" John said. He was speaking of the wrath that was to bring about the destruction of the temple, an unthinkable idea, by 70 A.D.

Can you imagine Jesus doing that? Did he jump up and down screaming the sermon on the mount? Did he push people down and scream "be Healed!" ?
Did Jesus kick any old ladies in the face?
(reference to Todd Bentley of the Lakeland FL Revival that Ty was defending in another thread for anyone not getting the reference)

He did what it took. You don't know what he did. The gospels aren't exhaustive. John said all the world couldn't contain the books that could be written about all Jesus did and said. Demons cried out and manifested. People fell at his feet. They pressed up against him in crowds. A sick old lady crawled to touch the hem of his garment. She could have gotten kicked!
Some would have called it a 'circus.'
The new move of God isn't going to be accepted by the religious, as it wasn't accepted by the same in the first century. They wanted to stone Jesus at least twice, and tried to push him off the brow of a hill another time. Who was acting up then? Weren't we all in that crowd, positionally?

I see Jesus in the bible as a calm peaceful teacher. The only time he lost his temper (and I dont even think it could be called that) was when he cleared the temple grounds.

You mean when he scattered the sacrificial animals, and made a whip to beat the money-changers, and turned over their tables?
I suggest you watch the version of "Matthew" that was put out on four VHS tapes in the 1990s. It is word-for-word out of the NIV, and Jesus really let the Pharisees 'have it' in Matthew 23! He shouted at the religious 'experts,' calling them a "brood of vipers," and "hypocrites." He added to that a decree of the desolation of the temple. You'd think he was trying to get himself crucified! And, no, he didn't have a British gentleman's accent. Jesus is a real human, not a Shakesperian actor.

His preaching was not screaming or jumping around like a lunatic.

He told a woman, that healing wasn't for a 'dog' like her. He told people to eat his flesh and drink his blood. It still sounds pretty darn crazy. Especially then, when they didn't know he was speaking in metaphor.
On the last great day of the Feast, he cried out with a loud voice, "Come unto me, all ye who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest!" A lot of people probably thought he couldn't make good on that claim. I guess they would have had to just wait and see others get it.

Or they could have claimed it, by faith. Coming to him would have been making a claim on the promise.

He didn't tell people to "claim their healing"

See the above.

He actually healed them. without the histrionics or theatrics of Benny Hinn, Ken Copeland, Todd Bentley, Poppoff or those other nutjobs.

You think making eyeballs with mud made of dirt and saliva is church as usual? Or was it a 'You've got to see it to believe it' moment?

If all the people you despise got a healing to someone, would you still call him a nutjob? Why leave Jesus off the list? Its the authority of his name that does the healing.

Maturity indeed.

To paraphrase Todd B: "want some maturity? come and get some"

You are anything but mature, Ty.

Now, now, sparky, don't get your flint all bent. Be nice.

[Sparko]

Every new move of God starts out with 'baby steps.' Not fully developed theological position papers. John the baptist had a short, simple message. He also got quite agitated when priests and Pharisees came. He called them a "brood of vipers." I bet he looked and acted like some of the people moving with the Holy Spirit today. He was filled with the Spirit, but Jesus said, "He who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." He was speaking of new babes in Christ.

John the baptist looked and acted like televangelists? Did he wear $3,000 suits, have gold rings on all his fingers, and sit on a gilded throne begging for money like Benny Hinn? Did he sell Holy Annointing Oil and paper Prayer Rugs on TV?

Funny I must have missed that part in the bible. maybe you could point it out for me? It must be between the lines where it said he wore animal skins and ate locusts.

He did what it took. You don't know what he did. The gospels aren't exhaustive.

So you are going to argue from silence? What? Did Jesus secretly run around slamming people to the ground and kicking old ladies and the apostles were just too embarrassed to write about it? Is that what you think? Or maybe they just ran out of paper?

We know what Jesus was like by what is written in the bible. He was not a completely different person when nobody was writing about him.

Can you seriously tell me you think Jesus ran around acting like these televangelists? Seriously? Does your church do an Easter pageant where Jesus goes around screaming on stage, and slamming people to the ground? Really?

A sick old lady crawled to touch the hem of his garment. She could have gotten kicked!

Seriously. You are trying to claim that Jesus KICKED her? Are you that desperate and far gone? That you would assign an act of violence to our Lord to a suffering woman? You need to repent from even thinking such a thing.

Some would have called it a 'circus.'
The new move of God isn't going to be accepted by the religious, as it wasn't accepted by the same in the first century. They wanted to stone Jesus at least twice, and tried to push him off the brow of a hill another time. Who was acting up then? Weren't we all in that crowd, positionally?

This is not NEW. Hedonistic revelry and thrashing around on the floor and doing violence and calling it "healing" has been going on in pagan religions for thousands of years. Consulting spirit guides like Todd does has been going on for just as long. This is not something "new" - it is as old as the hills.

He told a woman, that healing wasn't for a 'dog' like her. He told people to eat his flesh and drink his blood. It still sounds pretty darn crazy. Especially then, when they didn't know he was speaking in metaphor.

Lol. he was speaking in parables and not screaming and dancing in the street like a lunatic. He didn't push people down and make them twitch. He didn't act anything like these nutjobs you are pushing on us to accept.

When Jesus healed people he picked them UP. He didn't toss them down to twitch on the ground. He picked them UP. Another sign that the televangelists are not doing God's work.

You think making eyeballs with mud made of dirt and saliva is church as usual? Or was it a 'You've got to see it to believe it' moment?

Sure beats kicking an old lady in the face, huh?

[TyRockwell]

John the baptist looked and acted like televangelists? Did he wear $3,000 suits, have gold rings on all his fingers, and sit on a gilded throne begging for money like Benny Hinn? Did he sell Holy Annointing Oil and paper Prayer Rugs on TV?

Relax, sparkly! Get your focus of personalities and wardrobe. Jesus had one of the most expensive robes available in his day. It was woven in one piece. Wardrobe isn't a sign of whether the Holy Spirit is at work.

Next, you'll be complaining that the minister wears jeans and t-shirts and has tatoos!

Can you seriously tell me you think Jesus ran around acting like these televangelists? Seriously? Does your church do an Easter pageant where Jesus goes around screaming on stage, and slamming people to the ground? Really?

You obviously know nothing about the power of the Holy Spirit.
When Jesus walked around in public his inherent glory was turned down, except on the mount of transfiguration, when they saw him in greater glory. When Jesus appeared as The Angel of the Lord, in Daniel 10, the prophet was unable to stand up because of the glory. The same happened when the Glory of the Lord filled the temple when Solomon's Temple was dedicated. The priests were not able to stand up to minister.
Then, in Revelation, when John saw Jesus, on more than one occasion, he fell out and became "as a dead man."
The operation of the Holy Spirit is even more pronounced, now, on this side of the Day of Pentecost, when He came and the Age of the Holy Spirit began in a more profound way, in and on believers. You can't compare the Acts of the Holy Spirit in this age to those we saw in the Bible. These are the days of the "greater things than these shall you do, because I go to the Father." John 14:12 Because He went to the Father, and Christians have been made new creations in him, there is a whole new level of the anointing of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, the power of the Holy Spirit causes people to fall. So what? Do you prefer no power of the Holy Spirit?

The purpose of this thread is not for you to carry on the immature fussing, you did in the other thread.
The purpose is to deal with the Full Measure of the Stature of the Anointed One. Ephesians 4:13 tells us this is going to happen. Believers who come into the fullness of the Spirit and the Knowledge of the Son of God, with signs following, are the mature. People who don't want to grow into the Knowledge of the Son of God will remain immature, like you, sparkless.

The purpose of the Church in the days that lay ahead, and even now, is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages Has been hidden in God, to the intent that NOW, throughthe Church, the manifold wisdom of God be demonstrated to the principalities and powers in the heavenly realms. Eph. 3:9-11

We have principalities and powers of evil to bind and cast down now. They were just getting started in the New Testament days. We have the principalities of Babylon, Persia, and Greece to overcome now; the principalities shown in Revelation 13:2.

In some ways, the church is just getting started all over again, in learning how to act in the power of the Holy Spirit. This is why it is like baby steps, and it is not neat, prim and 'proper.' Theology textbooks are going to be behind the move of God, trying to catch up.

Be looking ahead, to where we have to go and what we have to do, maybe you will be able to see, or at least, others without closed minds will be able to see that maturity in Christ and in using the authority of Jesus' name in the power of the Holy Spirit is the destination pointed to from the word 'Until' at the start of Ephesians 4:13.

[Sparko]

Relax, sparkly! Get your focus of personalities and wardrobe. Jesus had one of the most expensive robes available in his day. It was woven in one piece. Wardrobe isn't a sign of whether the Holy Spirit is at work.

Next, you'll be complaining that the minister wears jeans and t-shirts and has tatoos!

can't you even keep up with the dialog? You claimed that John the baptist was just like the televangelists. Now you are talking as if you know what type of wardrobe Jesus wore? Where in the bible does it tell you about his clothes?

You have completely lost your focus. You were saying we need to be more mature in our faith, and yet the people you follow are anything but mature. When I pointed that out to you, you said every movement has to start with baby steps.

So you are admitting they are not mature, right?

They are immature babies. But more than that they are greedy conmen taking advantage of the poor and weak. And you cheer them on.

[TyRockwell]

can't you even keep up with the dialog? You claimed that John the baptist was just like the televangelists. Now you are talking as if you know what type of wardrobe Jesus wore? Where in the bible does it tell you about his clothes?

Can't you even read the Bible? Do people have to spoon-feed it to you like baby food? Read John 19:23 The seemless garment, according to the NIV Study Bible notes, and others, was valuable.

You have completely lost your focus. You were saying we need to be more mature in our faith, and yet the people you follow are anything but mature. When I pointed that out to you, you said every movement has to start with baby steps.

Your ignorance shows your immaturity. You said, "the people you follow." I follow The Spirit of Jesus, my Lord. Its too bad you don't. The focus of this thread is to get beyond the fussing over clothes and actions of the Holy Spirit, which you have made abundantly clear that you don't like, and to move on into a better understanding that the times we are entering require a willingness to let the Holy Spirit teach you what you don't already know. You don't know it all. You know so little, you are a baby.

They are immature babies. But more than that they are greedy conmen taking advantage of the poor and weak. And you cheer them on.

• Edited by a Moderator • or leave this thread, and never return, in the name of Jesus!

[Sparko]

Ty, your immaturity is showing. I can almost see the spittle hitting your screen as you made your last post.

I pray for your awakening. Anyone watching TBN for 15 minutes can see most of the preachers on there are con artists out to make a buck. Copeland, Hinn, Crouch, etc. Phony as a 3 dollar bill.

They take advantage of people by promising that they will get back 100 times what they send in. If that were true, why don't they GIVE away money instead? then they wouldn't have to ask for it. It would pour in.

These guys act NOTHING like Jesus. NOTHING at all. They are charlatans. wolves in sheeps clothing. I don't see how you are so blind to that.

This is not a "new movement" it is as old as the garden of eden. They promise to make you like God. You have the "power" to create and heal just by speaking words of faith. You can basically command God and he has to obey the words of faith. Can't you see that is a lie from the pit of hell? God does not do our bidding. We do his.

[Amazing Rando]

Repent, ye sinners! Repent!

[TyRockwell]

• Edited by a Moderator • Do not come back to this thread. I'm taking you off my buddy list, and putting you on my ignore list. The Lord rebuke you.

Moderated By: Achmed the Cat

The moderator rebukes you! Do not accuse people of lying without substantiation!

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

[Crow]

He called them a "brood of vipers."

I believe that is what Sparko is doing re: some TV preachers, and rightfully so, only using modern terminology.

A sick old lady crawled to touch the hem of his garment. She could have gotten kicked!

That wasn't the equivalent of today's televangalist craziness in that culture. A woman touched the fringe of a rabbi's prayer shawl. It had the common cultural meaning of requesting a blessing. It wouldn't have been some strange incomprehensible garbage.

He told a woman, that healing wasn't for a 'dog' like her.

Not nutty either. Dog=gentile in that culture. She, and anyone else would have understood that He was telling her that He was sent to the Jews. You lose the whole meaning of that account, that a gentile can come to Him in faith, even though He was sent to the Jews, if that were some just some obscure utterance.

You think making eyeballs with mud made of dirt and saliva is church as usual?

Yup. A rabbi's saliva was considered holy after a fast. In that culture it meant that he was anointing to heal.

[TyRockwell]

I believe that is what Sparko is doing re: some TV preachers, and rightfully so, only using modern terminology.

He and you are wrongfully 'doing' some TV preachers. Being on TV doesn't require them to agree with your doctrines of religious correctness. Neither is it right to say that people are not being healed after multiple decades of some of the ministries he dispises. If it were not true, so many more people would be saying there was no healing. As it is the vast majority are not saying they were not healed. Many have medical documentation that a prior sickness or injury no longer exists.

That wasn't the equivalent of today's televangalist craziness in that culture. A woman touched the fringe of a rabbi's prayer shawl. It had the common cultural meaning of requesting a blessing. It wouldn't have been some strange incomprehensible garbage.

That is rationalizing away the parallel. I was not implying an exact sameness. It was a greater degree of anointing, i.e. the Anointed One, than the nation had ever known before Jesus came. The parallel of today is that there is a greater anointing than the church has any living memory of, and that the anointing is increasing and producing righteous fruit.

This is the prophecied parallel to Joel's prophecy that began on the Day of Pentecost. This is the last days outpouring to prepare the church to be powerful and triumphant to do warfare against the demonic principalities and powers we are told to overcome in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Take all agitating against the anointing back to other threads, please. This is a Pro-Anointing thread. This is an eschatology thread, and I'm presenting the anointing in the context of fulfilling Bible prophecy.

Not nutty either. Dog=gentile in that culture. She, and anyone else would have understood that He was telling her that He was sent to the Jews. You lose the whole meaning of that account, that a gentile can come to Him in faith, even though He was sent to the Jews, if that were some just some obscure utterance.

I understand the context, but that is not my point. Your point agrees with what I'm saying, that if one was to take out of context what Jesus meant by "their dogs," he would be doing the same thing as critics who twist every departure from heterodoxy as a reason to discredit the whole new thing God is doing with His anointing.

Yup. A rabbi's saliva was considered holy after a fast. In that culture it meant that he was anointing to heal.

Not everything Jesus did was 'kosher' according to the religious elite who had piled on additional regulations and treated them as commandments of God.

[Sparko]

Ty, you can't kick me out of your thread for disagreeing with you, and you can't put me on ignore.

If you don't want people disagreeing with you then don't post on a debate forum.