Until we all become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the Fullness of the Stature of Christ

[Glenn P]

Ty, I appreciate you about-turn in tone. Thank you (compare to post 212 to see what I mean). Fruit of the Spirit is far more trustworthy a guide on the degree to which a person is under the influence of the Holy Spirit than their charismatic theology, rest assured of that!

There was no malice in anything I posted.

To make it so much easier for you to understand:

Never assume that my problem is simply a failure to understand your position. I know full well what it is.

Usually someone who claims to be a cessationist does not believe in the present day "baptism in the Holy Spirit." To them, the indwelling Holy Spirit is all that is available today, and they equate the indwelling Spirit with 'being filled with the Spirit.'

This is a point you ignored from an earlier post. That the disciples were gather together behind closed doors on the evening of Resurrection Day, when Jesus appeared and breathed on them, saying, "Receive the Holy Spirit." It is at that time, when they knew and believed that Jesus had been raised from the dead that they had the indwelling Holy Spirit.

The new Testament espistles speak of only one Baptism in the Spirit. Only once is such a thing ever referred to. In 1 Corinthians, Paul says that in one Spirit we were all baptised into one body.

This is also my view of the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Subsequent to that, on the Day of Pentecost, these same believers, and no doubt many others who had believed in Jesus' resurrection, were filled with the Holy Spirit.

It is clear that being filled with the Spirit is a second experience in addition to the saving presence of the Spirit of the Lord. Cessationists generally deny that the second still happens and that it is an enduement of power that adds gift manifestations to those so endued.

This is true, even in the Old Testament (e.g. Samson). The question for cessationists is not whether the Holy Spirit can suddenly and mightily influence a person - and that's all you're really describing. The cessationist concern is over the way that God provides revelation today.

The fruit of the Spirit is a product of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and is expected of all believers.

Indeed it is, for all believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

[TyRockwell]

The difference is terminology. The 'overflowing Holy Spirit, as a result of being filled' with the Holy Spirit, is what charismatics have that cessationists don't.

[John Reece]

The cessationist concern is over the way that God provides revelation today.

Please elaborate.

[brainout]

Actually, the answer is rather simple. Think of the analogy Paul makes both here in Eph 4 and in 1Cor12. The 'maturation' of a hand, is that needed to be a 'hand'. The 'maturation' of the head, is what's needed to be a 'head'. As Christians, we are largely choosing to mature in 'hand', but not 'head', which is why the Rapture hasn't happened until yet. Our theology is puerile, we wrangle with each other, and Bible learning is relegated to the homily, the sectarian debate, still mired down in God101 (i.e., is Jesus Divine, is God Triune, kindergarten stuff).

So: the 'head' maturation means the "Pleroma" (used in Eph4:13 and 3:15-19) will be the KINGS under the King of Kings. So only a FEW persons. If you're interested, I cover the dynamics of that body count issue beginning in http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/LvS4b.htm . The maturation itself, is covered in http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/LordvSatan3.htm . Plenty of Bible verses used. I was doing it to AUDIT the doctrine of spiritual maturation and its resulting Blessing-by-Association and 'hastening the Day' (Rapture), which my pastor daily taught from Bible from 1985-2003 (pretty much non-stop). Lots of stuff to read, tho.

Kudos to Ty for noticing that the REAL Rapture criterion is Ephesians 4:13. NOT, historical events. Gonna send him some pearls for that. Almost no one in Christendom knows the true criterion for the Rapture. But Ty does!

[John Reece]

[snip] which my pastor daily taught from Bible from 1985-2003 (pretty much non-stop).

Who is or was your pastor?

[TyRockwell]

Actually, the answer is rather simple. Think of the analogy Paul makes both here in Eph 4 and in 1Cor12. The 'maturation' of a hand, is that needed to be a 'hand'. The 'maturation' of the head, is what's needed to be a 'head'. As Christians, we are largely choosing to mature in 'hand', but not 'head', which is why the Rapture hasn't happened until yet. Our theology is puerile, we wrangle with each other, and Bible learning is relegated to the homily, the sectarian debate, still mired down in God101 (i.e., is Jesus Divine, is God Triune, kindergarten stuff).

So: the 'head' maturation means the "Pleroma" (used in Eph4:13 and 3:15-19) will be the KINGS under the King of Kings. So only a FEW persons. If you're interested, I cover the dynamics of that body count issue beginning in http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/LvS4b.htm . The maturation itself, is covered in http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/LordvSatan3.htm . Plenty of Bible verses used. I was doing it to AUDIT the doctrine of spiritual maturation and its resulting Blessing-by-Association and 'hastening the Day' (Rapture), which my pastor daily taught from Bible from 1985-2003 (pretty much non-stop). Lots of stuff to read, tho.

Kudos to Ty for noticing that the REAL Rapture criterion is Ephesians 4:13. NOT, historical events. Gonna send him some pearls for that. Almost no one in Christendom knows the true criterion for the Rapture. But Ty does!

Thankyou for the Pearls. However, "hastening the day" for me is about Jesus coming back all the way down to earth to stay. I stopped believing in 'the Rapture' and so-called 7 year tribulation years ago.

[brainout]

Who is or was your pastor?

RB Thieme Jr. www.rbthieme.org

[brainout]

You're welcome for the pearls, and you'll be even more welcome when you revisit the notion that pre-Trib and Trib are false. Bible extensively documents it beginning with Adam. Links are in my "Isaiah 53's meter" thread, because even Isaiah is forecasting its raison d'etre by subtracting seven syllables in the meter of Isa53:9-10. I did extensive videos on Isaiah 53 and they're not done yet. For some weird reason, of all my videos, the Isaiah 53 videos are the ones other people select to embed in their webpages. Look up "Calendar" and "Isaiah 53". Best viewed in bliptv or on my Isa53trans.htm webpage, fullscreen.

[TyRockwell]

You're welcome for the pearls, and you'll be even more welcome when you revisit the notion that pre-Trib and Trib are false. Bible extensively documents it beginning with Adam. Links are in my "Isaiah 53's meter" thread, because even Isaiah is forecasting its raison d'etre by subtracting seven syllables in the meter of Isa53:9-10. I did extensive videos on Isaiah 53 and they're not done yet. For some weird reason, of all my videos, the Isaiah 53 videos are the ones other people select to embed in their webpages. Look up "Calendar" and "Isaiah 53". Best viewed in bliptv or on my Isa53trans.htm webpage, fullscreen.

We are still in the tribulation, now. It began in the first century, during the time of the apostles, according to Daniel 12:1-2, and Jesus' own words.
The 70th week of Daniel was fulfilled in the three and one-half year ministry years of Jesus and the other half was fulfilled by 70 AD, which is exactly what Daniel 9:27 says.

Do you care to discuss it?

[John Reece]

So: the 'head' maturation means the "Pleroma" (used in Eph4:13 and 3:15-19) will be the KINGS under the King of Kings. So only a FEW persons.

Are you one of the 'FEW' 'KINGS under the King of Kings' who are the 'Pleroma'?

[brainout]

Are you one of the 'FEW' 'KINGS under the King of Kings' who are the 'Pleroma'?

Not yet. We are all Crown Princes in training. So your real name is "Crown Prince John Reece". So too, "Crown Prince dizzle". Until we finish the maturation course, we don't get crowned. Gotta grow up in Him. See http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/LordvSatan3.htm where the schema is explained (four webpages in that section, all of them long and Bible-heavy).

We're all Royal Family of God. Problem is, most of us won't grow up to Ruler status, so the kings will be few. I've no clue who they are, except for Paul (2Tim4:7-8). Search on "crown", "king", "riches", "inheritance", "inherit the kingdom", "prize", and synonyms. Greek words for these are many more than in English. You'll know what to look for as you do the search.

It's not an unknown doctrine in Christendom, but not many teach it. I could find some sites on the internet by searching "crowns doctrine" and synonyms. Mostly the Baptists seem to teach it, but they're not alone.

[brainout]

We are still in the tribulation, now. It began in the first century, during the time of the apostles, according to Daniel 12:1-2, and Jesus' own words.
The 70th week of Daniel was fulfilled in the three and one-half year ministry years of Jesus and the other half was fulfilled by 70 AD, which is exactly what Daniel 9:27 says.

Do you care to discuss it?

Nope. I spent four whopping years of 60-hour weeks having to write up the proof that Rapture is real, valid, pre-Trib. That, after being BORED with it the first time 20 years prior when sitting for four whopping years in daily exegesis of Revelation. So if you want, I can direct you to the right page and you can discuss with it. But me, I'm not in the mood, sorry. Been there, done that, now working on Isaiah 53 and retranslating 1 John.