"You Quoted Out Of Context" - debunked

[smaneck]

I see I missed an element of this. Narinian wrote:

[Freiling says that reading from the NT is the first part of Christian divine service, followed by the sacrements, then the experience of the presence of Christ. The divine service in the mosque stops at the first part - at the reading from the Koran.

I'm glad Freiling knows so much about what a Muslim experiences in a mosque. Has he ever heard of salat? Does he know how a Muslim experiences the presence of God when he does salat or hears the reading of the Qur'an?

Or do Christians imagine they have so much of a monopoly on the Holy Spirit that they are the only ones to experience God's Presence?

The Hands of God are not tied up!

[Narnian]

A good and useful analogy illustrating this follows.
On a ship sinking in the middle of the ocean, tossed to and fro by the gale winds of a typhoon and having lost its anchor. Suddenly this broken ship lists to one side and almost all its passengers fall into the churning ocean waves!
Screaming and shouting for their dear lives, these poor hapless victoms cry out for help in distress.
One voice tries to help, from somebody on the slanting deck, hooting: "Here, take this Manual, and try hard as possible to save yourself!" And flings a book on 'How to Swim' to the helpless souls almost drowning among the boiling waves!
"You stupid fool" Came another voice from someone who saw this desperate act of fool hardiness.."How can they learn to swim NOW in the churning waves if this typhoon filled sea!"
"Its OKAY," came another voice, booming through the gale winds and the thunder and lightning, "My friend and I are both qualified Life-guards, and we will save as many of those drowning folks as possible!
And having said that, these 2 men promptly jumped into the broiling sea and saved as many drowning victims as they could!
This is what islam does, it throws the 'How to Swim' manual to helpless drowning souls in the trials and tests of life! And instructs them to learn how to swim when it is too late for these souls to do so.
These victims do not need another 'Swimming Guide' or Manual! They have no time to do that, they are all caught up in the whirlpool of death and drowning..!

Brilliant analogy Dan!!

And, yes, Jesus is the "Basar" - a Hebrew word meaning BOTH word AND flesh.

[Narnian]

Before I continue, Susan, I would like you to answer these questions:

Is the Quran inerrant or not? And the bible; do you believe it is inerrant?

[smaneck]

Before I continue, Susan, I would like you to answer these questions:

Is the Quran inerrant or not? And the bible; do you believe it is inerrant?

Dear Niriman,

That's a somewhat complicated question from my perspective. I see the Qur'an as more authoritative than the Bible in that it represents revelation given directly to what I would call a Manifestation of God. Aside from those few parts of the Bible which begins with the words, "Thus speaketh the Lord" we don't have that much in the Bible. At the same time, I believe that Jesus central message was preserved in the NT even if we can't be sure that any given passage was His own exact words. But no, I don't regard the Bible as inerrant.

When you ask that question about the Qur'an, I would answer somewhat differently. It depends on what you mean by inerrancy. If by inerrancy you mean there are no grammatical mistakes, historical mistakes or scientific inaccuracies, no I do not believe it is inerrant. I do, however, believe it is mas'um, infallible or immaculate. By that I mean it infallibly represents the Will of God as revealed to Muhammad. There is an interesting dialogue between a Baha'i scholar Mirza Abu'l-Fadl and the Khalif of the Ahmadiyya Muslims. The Khalif asked Mirza Abu'l-Fadl whether the reference to Noah in the Qur'an and the Bible living a thousand years should be taken literally. Mirza Abu'l-Fadl makes the following points about how we treat scripture which I think are extremely important.

"It is clear that the prophets and Manifestations of the Cause of God were sent to guide the
nations, to improve their characters, and to bring the people nearer to their Source and
ultimate Goal. They were not sent as historians, astronomers, philosophers, or natural
scientists. . . . Therefore, the prophets have indulged the people in regard to their historical
notions, folk stories, and scientific principles, and have spoken to them according to these. .
. . A rational human being will therefore have no doubt that those things mentioned in the Holy
Qu'ran, such as how the creation commenced, the debate of the angels, the stories of Adam, of
Satan, and of Noah and the flood, are all realities. These speak of repeated promises to renew
the world and refer to the appointed times for the expiration (through the advent of the primal
Holy Reality and the renewal of divine laws) of the terms allotted to the nations. But from the
point of view of science, it is impermissible for the historian to depend on the literal meaning
of these verses."

For this reason, even though I believe that the Qur'an is more authoritative than the Bible I do not exclude the possibility that the Bible may be more accurate in terms of some of its historical accounts. Really, though, there is no way to know. The stories in the Torah, as you know were all told centuries after the fact. I don't think it matters all that much if a given account (such as the story of the golden calf) is written fifteen hundred years after the fact or only five hundred. I'm going to look at that story for its moral content, not its historical accuracy.

warmest, Susan

[smaneck]

Brilliant analogy Dan!!

And, yes, Jesus is the "Basar" - a Hebrew word meaning BOTH word AND flesh.

I see where it means fliesh. Can you give me a Jewish source which uses the term to mean 'word'?

[barnasha]

I see where it means fliesh. Can you give me a Jewish source which uses the term to mean 'word'?

they are probably confusing "besorah" (strong's 1309) with the related word "basar" (1320), which means "good news" (gospel) and is related to the word basar...

"davar" (strongs 1697) seems to be the equivalent of "logos" - but does not seem to have all the meanings of logos (which means much more than 'Word'...)

logos and davar mean word, but logos seems to have even more imbued meaning (logic, standard, etc)

it'd be nice if someone could find us an in-depth source on this matter...

[Narnian]

I see where it means fliesh. Can you give me a Jewish source which uses the term to mean 'word'?

Sorry, I meant "gospel" - as in "good news", a euphemism for salvation.

rXb
Basar - 291 Strong's Number: 1319
Definition
to bear news, bear tidings, publish, preach, show forth
to gladden with good news
to bear news
to announce (salvation) as good news, preach

rXb
Basar - 291a
Definition
flesh, of the body, of humans, of animals

Further explanation:
The Hebrew word for Good news, or gospel, is basar. This word actually has two meanings, good news and flesh. What does good news and flesh have in common? Flesh, or meat, was only eaten on very special occasions, a feast, the arrival of guests or whenever an event occurs that requires a celebration. As you can see these times of good news were associated with the slaughter of an animal and a meal of flesh.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_goodnews.html

So you can see where the "Jesus as sacrifice" originates.

A few of the verses:

Isaiah 52.7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of the messenger who announces peace, who brings good news, who announces salvation
Isa 40:9 Get yourself up on a high mountain, O Zion, bearer of good news, Lift up your voice mightily, O Jerusalem, bearer of good news;
Isa 41:27 And to Jerusalem, 'I will give a messenger of good news.'
Isa 60:6 They will bring gold and frankincense, And will bear good news of the praises of the Lord.
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the Lord has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted;

Conclusion:

The gospel is not a book; Christ is the gospel.

But this contradicts Islam, because the "Injeel" ("Gospel" with an arabic greek accent) ONLY refers to a written text which they believe was "sent down".

Quran 7:157 Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find written in the Torah and the Gospel
Quran 3.3 He sent down the Law and the Gospel

And just a little extra thing I found that may, or may not, be connected to the above; "Basar" means "light/illumination" in Sanskrit, and Jesus is also referred to as the "light".

[Narnian]

But no, I don't regard the Bible as inerrant.

thanks

When you ask that question about the Qur'an, I would answer somewhat differently. It depends on what you mean by inerrancy. If by inerrancy you mean there are no grammatical mistakes, historical mistakes or scientific inaccuracies, no I do not believe it is inerrant.

If there are scientific mistakes, then how could it have been "revealed" and "sent down" from an Omniscient God?

I do, however, believe it is mas'um, infallible or immaculate.

infallible and inerrant are the same word. If you dont' believe it is inerrant, yet you do believe it is infallible, then you are not being consistent. Please explain in your own words.

[barnasha]

If by inerrancy you mean there are no grammatical mistakes, historical mistakes or scientific inaccuracies, no I do not believe it is inerrant.

Do you know of an "inaccuracy" in the Qur'an?

[Dan Zebiri]

Easy, barney, here are some you ran away from:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...44&postcount=9

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...4&postcount=17

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...6&postcount=30

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...3&postcount=31

and here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...9&postcount=48

And also here:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/index.html

Dan.

[Narnian]

As to whether there are just as many Christians as Muslims who believe in the inerrancy of scritpure, if you think it is false, then kindly provide some statistics to prove it. I know about 50% of American Christians think the Bible is inerrant.

There was a radio program about this just yesterday. Here are the latest statistics:

Paul Comrie-Thomson: It's generally believed that evangelicals make up 25% of the population. You've done the book, you've done the research, what's the true figure?
Christine Wicker: The true figure is closer to 7%.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/counterpoin...08/2289360.htm

Perhaps you can find out what percent of American Muslims believe the same about the Qur'an?

100%

Yes ALL Muslims are fundamentalists, because a central tenet in Islam (as opposed to what non-fundamentalist Christians believe regarding the Bible) is that the Quran is God's eternal, uncreated, infinite and LITERAL word. Many Muslims can ignore many passages of the Quran, but ultimately, they are not being true Muslims: Islam demands the belief that the whole Qu'ran is to be interpreted literally.

This is what Ibn Warraq says about 'fundamentalism' "It is not correct to speak of 'Islamic fundamentalism' as one could speak of 'Christian fundamentalism'... Most Christians have moved away from the literal interpretation of the Bible; thus, one can correctly distinguish between fundamentalist and non-fundamentalist Christians. But Muslims have not moved away from the literal interpretation of the Qur'an: all Muslims, and not just the group that we usually call 'fundamentalists' [namely, jihadists, Shariah proponents, etc.] believe the Qur'an is literally God's word".

Quran is inerrant:

2:2 This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it

Sura 4:82 Do they not ponder on the Qur'an? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.

It is perfect:

11.1 (This is) a Scripture the revelations whereof are perfected and then expounded. (It cometh) from One Wise, Informed

20.114 the Qur'an ere its revelation hath been perfected unto thee

CONCLUSION:

Your answer is:

7% of Christians versus 100% of muslims

[smaneck]

Sorry, I meant "gospel" - as in "good news", a euphemism for salvation.

rXb
Basar - 291 Strong's Number: 1319

Isn't this a Christian source, Nariman?

There is an Arabic word Bisharat which means Good News, I'm just not sure it is actually the same root.

[smaneck]

thanks
If there are scientific mistakes, then how could it have been "revealed" and "sent down" from an Omniscient God?

Dear Narinian,

I believe that the quote I gave you from Mirza Abu'l-Fadl explains that. God has to speak to people in a language they understand. He uses stories which are current amont them, whether or not they are precisely accurate in order to make a point in the present.

[infallible and inerrant are the same word.

Not necessarily and certainly not in Arabic. Ma'sum or ismat which usually gets defined as infallibility literally means immaculacy. I don't think this has much to do with propositional errors.

If you dont' believe it is inerrant, yet you do believe it is infallible, then you are not being consistent. Please explain in your own words.

I have, but it seems I can't get past your own presuppositions.


warmest, Susan

[smaneck]

Do you know of an "inaccuracy" in the Qur'an?

Dear Barnasha,

Our Christian friends are most happy to try and come up with them for us, I don't wish to make their job easier. What I'm saying is that they are largely missing the point when they do this, because that is not what revelation is all about.

warmest, Susan

[barnasha]

Dear Barnasha,

Our Christian friends are most happy to try and come up with them for us, I don't wish to make their job easier. What I'm saying is that they are largely missing the point when they do this, because that is not what revelation is all about.

warmest, Susan

your point is duly noted, I asked you because you, like I, don't seem to "take sides" in the imagined "Islam versus Christianity" war they seem to find themselves in.

As such, I appreciate your contributions to the discussion here - not because you are "pro Islam" but because you make good arguments.

I think our Christian friends would be shocked to know how much yours truly evangelizes Jesus and the bible outside of this forum .....