Originally posted by bling
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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If Babies Go To Heaven, Why Not Abort Them All
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"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThis is a good reminder that Christians need a better theology of what heaven is. The popular idea that it's just a disembodied existence in the sky doing nothing has led to all sort of problems.
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Originally posted by bling View PostDo humans have an earthly objective while here on earth that only mature adult humans can fulfill?
If humans do not have an objective why are we to spend time here at all, since it is not a “happy” place?
If there is an earthly objective for mature adult, why can it only be fulfilled on earth?
Babies that die prior to fulfilling their objective would fairly and justly go to heaven, so what would they lack in heaven?
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Originally posted by bling View PostDo humans have an earthly objective while here on earth that only mature adult humans can fulfill?
If humans do not have an objective why are we to spend time here at all, since it is not a “happy” place?
If there is an earthly objective for mature adult, why can it only be fulfilled on earth?
Babies that die prior to fulfilling their objective would fairly and justly go to heaven, so what would they lack in heaven?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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To add to my OP (and I mentally predicted this while writing it) occasionally skeptics will attempt to rebuff some of the reasons for finding abortion untenable in the Christian worldview by bringing up apologetic responses to the destruction of Israel's enemies in the Old Testament. The idea goes something like this: Israel was ordered by God to destroy her enemies, which sometimes included women and children. In a way, death provided mercy to the unaccountable among Israel's enemies by opening the opportunity to heaven rather than allowing them to live a life that would pave the way to hell.
This made quite a lot of buzz in the skeptic community when William Lane Craig made the point, but it's certainly not a point unique to him, nor is it an unusual view among Christians in general (I often wonder exactly what skeptics thought Christians thought about this issue before WLC mentioned it in his podcast).
At any rate, there are a couple of responses to this. I think the number one response is found in #6 in Piper's list. God is the judge, not us, and it is presumptive for us to conclude that we have the ability to make the call concerning who should live and who should die in order to attain heaven. Mainly, I think, it robs people of their ability to make free will choices, and since there is no possible way for us to judge what those choices may be, it is something that can only be God's call, and God made that call in these rare OT examples. Not that I think that God desires anyone to die, which leads to the next point...
One MUST understand the context of the OT passages in order to understand why death for the unaccountable children of the enemies of Israel may have been a better alternative than life. The first issue is that the newly established Israel likely did not have the provisions and resources to keep the foreign unaccountable alive. Death may have been a rather unfortunate, and last resort mercy for a people living in an environmentally and socially dangerous wilderness. There wasn't much in the way of social programs in this period. There was no orphan system, or grand social service that could help. There were hard laboring men and women, relatively newly established, who could barely keep themselves and their own families fed. Exile meant certain slow and painful death through starvation, or a life of slavery by competing tribes. Furthermore, there was the possible risk that intermingling would further undermine the safety of the Israeli people themselves, and the worship of God. Some may respond to this by saying, "well what sort of damage could a child do, especially if he was inculcated from youth?" But the Bible has a perfect example of the damage that can be done in the person of Moses himself, who was adopted by Pharaoh in his youth, yet later in life, led a powerful movement against Egypt that saw widespread death and destruction. Furthermore, I think there's a psychological component to all of this. We know that pre-exile the Jewish people already whored after other gods. What sort of psychological motivation to continue worshipping the God of Israel could there have been if a large percentage of your population was no longer a descendant of Israel? I think a whole thread could be written on just this topic, but I'll leave that at that.
More to the point, though, is the fact that we're talking about a pre-Christ, pre-Holy Spirit people. A lot of skeptics, and even a lot of Christians don't fully comprehend how powerful the line of demarcation is between pre and post Christ. In a world pre-Christ, sanctification came only through keeping the law, and doing good works, and knowledge of the law came only through special covenant with God. God did not desire that anyone should die, but that all should live and come into knowledge of him, but, in a manner of speaking, God's hands were tied in providing unmerited mercy in preparation of the incarnation. It is only post-Christ that His grace and life everlasting has become available to all. It is only through Christ that the options limited to Israel have been broken wide open. Is is only through Christ that the Holy Spirit is able to move powerfully among us and draw us into knowledge of God. From that time forward death was no longer a viable option or last resort measure to use against the enemies of God's people or to save the unaccountable among them. Rather, laying one's own life down for others, in likeness to our savior has become our last resort option.
1 Peter 2:21 For to this you were called, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving an example for you to follow in his steps.Last edited by Adrift; 07-22-2016, 11:26 AM.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOccupy til He comes! "And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come." (kids can help )
We have a Great Commission to tell others about Jesus.
This world is not my home, I'm just a'passin' thru - my treasures are laid up somewhere beyond the blue....
There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.
And as joint heirs with Christ we will reign on earth with Him (though of course in a position under submission to him).
So, yeah, probably a bit nitpicky, but I think we need to be careful about the correct theology of these sorts of things because a lot of people (a lot of Christians) just don't really understand the bigger picture.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI'm so in agreement with all that you have to say here, but that ol song line from This World is Not My Home is something I kinda bristle at. I understand the overall intention of the song, and what it's attempting to convey, but it's also responsible in a way of convincing many Christians of a sort of Gnostic thinking of earth, and heaven, and our purpose in both. This earth isn't just a place I gotta get through in order to get to my real home. Earth is my home in a sense, and one day heaven and earth will be one,
And as joint heirs with Christ we will reign on earth with Him (though of course in a position under submission to him).
So, yeah, probably a bit nitpicky, but I think we need to be careful about the correct theology of these sorts of things because a lot of people (a lot of Christians) just don't really understand the bigger picture.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI'll buy that, but I'm not one for getting my theology from songs. It's just a song.
Yeah, a bit nitpicky, but just a bit.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostIf you have a chance, I really can't recommend N.T. Wright's book Surprised by Hope enough. It's an easy read and it really gets to the heart of the problem with not just these sorts of lyrics, but with the whole mentality that some Christians (not you of course) have about heaven. In my opinion, he goes a bit off the rails towards the end of the book as he concentrates a bit too much on Christian stewardship of this world (which I'm in agreement with, but he goes on too long about I think), but it's really the first part of the book that's the meat and potatoes.
Perhaps I'll start with this one -- heading to Amazon.com.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI'm finally at a place where I can catch up on some reading. We sold our ranch, I'm no longer in the cattle business, I've retired from my computer consulting job (though I have one client who simply refuses to let me fully retire, but it's OK, cause he pays really well and is fun to be around), I live much closer to the Church, so I don't have 16 hours of driving eating up my week.....
Perhaps I'll start with this one -- heading to Amazon.com.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostAwesome. Well you won't regret it if you pick it up.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostAnother thing I'd add is the idea that babies automatically go to heaven is a pretty big assumption. We can't be sure. I don't believe that babies go right to hell but the fact is the Bible doesn't outright say the opposite, either. For all we know, maybe they get an opportunity to be preached to sort of like what 1 Peter 4:6 says.
Either way, even if for some reason somebody didn't buy all the other reasons not to abort babies... it would be terrible to make such a decision based on an assumption we're not even sure about.
14Whom when Jesus saw, he was much displeased, and saith to them: Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not; for of such is the kingdom of God.
Other translations read “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these"
I think some of those children were even older than baby statusLast edited by princesa; 07-22-2016, 04:33 PM.
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OP: I think you are wrong to downplay, or run away from, the issue of carrot-and-stick theology. The Bible makes an enormous deal out of God's punishment/discipline. That is a huge part of what the whole idea of a "kingdom of heaven" is about.
Zechariah 5:1-3
Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll. And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits. Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.
And I think people who slaughter babies are going to be tormented tremendously, either on earth, or in hell, or both. If you murder your child, it absolutely will not profit you. Whether it will profit the child's own soul is a coin toss, because the child might have otherwise gotten saved and done great things for God, or might have lived a depraved life. I guess it could be argued that anyone wicked enough to murder their own child probably would not have evangelized the child or raised the child right anyway. But regardless of whether the child's soul profits from being murdered, the crime absolutely will not profit the killers.
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Madness is a curse, either upon an individual or else upon the society where the individual lives:
Deuteronomy 32:28-29
The Lord shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart: and thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.
I think that's why we have such serious mental health problems today. Regardless, we are talking about abortion, not postpartum psychosis.
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