Why does Baha'i deny the ETERNAL GOSPEL of Jesus Christ?

[smaneck]

The problem is that the Baha'i want intergrate all kinds of religions that are opposed to each other theologically.

No, not really. Our aim is to fulfil them.

The world could have unity in Christ, IF the " world " would come to Christ. But the sad fact is that most " refuse to come to Him to have life. "

But the question I still have is, what do the Baha'i claim is the Gospel of Jesus Christ ? According to the Apostles it was the forgiveness of sins through Jesus life, death and resurrection.

I don't deny that Jesus' death was redemptive, but it is not the only such act.


"That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Husayn offered up as a sacrifice by Muhammad, the Apostle of God.

No man can ever claim to have comprehended the nature of the hidden and manifold grace of God; none can fathom His all-embracing mercy. Such hath been the perversity of men and their transgressions, so grievous have been the trials that have afflicted the Prophets of God and their chosen ones, that all mankind deserveth to be tormented and to perish. God's hidden and most loving providence, however, hath, through both visible and invisible agencies, protected and will continue to protect it from the penalty of its wickedness. Ponder this in thine heart, that the truth may be revealed unto thee, and be thou steadfast in His path."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 75)

[JAYMZ]

I don't deny that Jesus' death was redemptive, but it is not the only such act.


"That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice......

Ok, theres one problem with you theology. You guys are running on same track as Islam.

I guess you guys, as well as Islam, think the Jews got it wrong with " the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. "

[JAYMZ]

Because when I was a Christian I was taught to pray, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Only the Baha'i Teachings have the capacity to bring about the Kingdom of God on earth.

How can you unite Islam with Christians, when Islam deny the deity, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ ? That IS what Christianity is founded on. Take that away, and you have NO Christian faith.

How can you unite Hindus' with monotheistic religions when they deny the idea of polytheistic gods and reincarnation ? And Buddhism, which for all practical purposes, is atheistic ?


Sounds like you guys want something that can only be ahieved by submitting to the Lordship of Christ.

This really goes to the whole " you can only serve one master " thing.

[JAYMZ]

I don't get any indication in the Gospels that this is why He did them.

I believe they served two purposes. To show compassion, and to justify the claims that he made.

John 10:38
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

Which is exactly what Isaiah expected of the messiah.

So what are you saying that Jesus was a false messiah ?

I do believe that the role of messiah was not carried out quite like the Jews had anticipated.

[smaneck]

Ok, theres one problem with you theology. You guys are running on same track as Islam.

I guess you guys, as well as Islam, think the Jews got it wrong with " the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. "

Why? Is your God too small to include Ismael? We certainly agree with the Qur'an on this point:

"Say ye: 'We believe in God, and that which hath been sent down to us, and that which hath been
sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes: and that which hath been given to Moses and to Jesus, and that which was given to the prophets from their Lord. No difference do we make between any of them: and to God are we resigned
(Qur'án 2:130)

As for question of who was the sacrifice, Baha'u'llah has this to say:

"The question is that whereas in past Scriptures Isaac is said to have been the sacrifice; in the Qur’án this station is given to Ishmael.
This is, undoubtedly, true. All, however, must fix their gaze upon the word which hath dawned from the Divine Horizon: it is incumbent upon every soul to ponder upon its sovereignty, influence, might, and on its all-encompassing nature. There hath never been any doubt whatsoever that all these things are confirmed and corroborated only by the Word of God. It is the Word of God that transcendeth all things, creates the universe, educateth the people, guideth them who are sore athirst from separation unto the ocean of reunion, and penetrateth through the darkness of ignorance with the light of understanding. Consider: all those who believe in past Scriptures think of Isaac as the Sacrifice; likewise, the people of Qur’án confirm this station for Ishmael. It is clear and evident to every possessor of insight and every religious person that no one was, outwardly sacrificed; all agree that an animal was sacrificed. So, ponder upon this: Why is it that a person who hath gone to the altar of sacrifice for the Beloved and yet hath come back [alive], is adorned with the raiment of ‘Sacrifice of God’ and accepted as such? There is no doubt that this is so because of the Word of God. Therefore, the criterion for the manifestation of all names and for confirmation and fulfillment of all stations is dependent upon the Word of God. Likewise, there is no doubt, that the Inaccessible, Unknowable [God] doth not talk as He is, and hath always been, sanctified from such conditions; rather, He speaketh through the tongue of His Manifestations. Thus the Torah issued from the tongue of Moses. The same is true of other Holy Scriptures: all were revealed by the tongues of Prophets and Messengers but, the real Speaker in all these Holy Books is the One true God.... It is now, therefore, established and confirmed that the station of ‘Sacrifice of God’ was, according to past Books, given to Isaac by Abraham and that very same station is, according to Divine Revelation, Ishmael’s in the Qur’ánic Dispensation." (from a provisional translation by Dr. Iskandar Hai)

warmest, Susan

[smaneck]

How can you unite Islam with Christians, when Islam deny the deity, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ?That IS what Christianity is founded on. Take that away, and you have NO Christian faith.

I agree that the crucifixion goes to heart of Christianity. I think Muslims have denied it on the basis of a misunderstanding of a single verse of the Qur'an which insists that Jews are not responsible for this act while ignoring the verse wherein Jesus says as a babe in Mary's arms, "Blessed am I on the day of my birth, the day of my death and the day in which I come again."

But I think you are misunderstanding the Baha'i claims. We are not trying to mix all the religions together as they currently exist. We are saying that Baha'u'llah's revelation fulfills them all. We are obligated to follow God's Word for today, not seek to reconcile everything that various religions have believed about God throughout the ages. Baha'u'llah writes:

"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 212)

Ultimately the essence of God is unknowable and even saying He is One places a human limitation on Him. Everything we know about God, we know only by virtue of what Baha'is call His Manifestation, those who embody in their own person everything we can understand about God humanly speaking. I believe this is why Jesus said "No man cometh to the Father except through the Son." Likewise, Baha'u'llah says:

"The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being hath ever been, and will continue for ever to be, closed in the face of men. No man's understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self. Whoso recognizeth them hath recognized God. Whoso hearkeneth to their call, hath hearkened to the Voice of God, and whoso testifieth to the truth of their Revelation, hath testified to the truth of God Himself. Whoso turneth away from them, hath turned away from God, and whoso disbelieveth in them, hath disbelieved in God. Every one of them is the Way of God that connecteth this world with the realms above, and the Standard of His Truth unto every one in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. They are the Manifestations of God amidst men, the evidences of His Truth, and the signs of His glory."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 49)

[smaneck]

I
So what are you saying that Jesus was a false messiah ?

Not exactly. I think the concept of messiah develops gradually in the Tanak and that there was and will be more than one fulfilment.

[JAYMZ]

Why? Is your God too small to include Ismael? We certainly agree with the Qur'an on this point:

"Say ye: 'We believe in God, and that which hath been sent down to us, and that which hath been
sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes: and that which hath been given to Moses and to Jesus, and that which was given to the prophets from their Lord. No difference do we make between any of them: and to God are we resigned
(Qur'án 2:130)

As for question of who was the sacrifice, Baha'u'llah has this to say:

"The question is that whereas in past Scriptures Isaac is said to have been the sacrifice; in the Qur’án this station is given to Ishmael.
This is, undoubtedly, true. All, however, must fix their gaze upon the word which hath dawned from the Divine Horizon: it is incumbent upon every soul to ponder upon its sovereignty, influence, might, and on its all-encompassing nature. There hath never been any doubt whatsoever that all these things are confirmed and corroborated only by the Word of God. It is the Word of God that transcendeth all things, creates the universe, educateth the people, guideth them who are sore athirst from separation unto the ocean of reunion, and penetrateth through the darkness of ignorance with the light of understanding. Consider: all those who believe in past Scriptures think of Isaac as the Sacrifice; likewise, the people of Qur’án confirm this station for Ishmael. It is clear and evident to every possessor of insight and every religious person that no one was, outwardly sacrificed; all agree that an animal was sacrificed. So, ponder upon this: Why is it that a person who hath gone to the altar of sacrifice for the Beloved and yet hath come back [alive], is adorned with the raiment of ‘Sacrifice of God’ and accepted as such? There is no doubt that this is so because of the Word of God. Therefore, the criterion for the manifestation of all names and for confirmation and fulfillment of all stations is dependent upon the Word of God. Likewise, there is no doubt, that the Inaccessible, Unknowable [God] doth not talk as He is, and hath always been, sanctified from such conditions; rather, He speaketh through the tongue of His Manifestations. Thus the Torah issued from the tongue of Moses. The same is true of other Holy Scriptures: all were revealed by the tongues of Prophets and Messengers but, the real Speaker in all these Holy Books is the One true God.... It is now, therefore, established and confirmed that the station of ‘Sacrifice of God’ was, according to past Books, given to Isaac by Abraham and that very same station is, according to Divine Revelation, Ishmael’s in the Qur’ánic Dispensation." (from a provisional translation by Dr. Iskandar Hai)

warmest, Susan

I still don't understand what this has to do with the fact that Isaac was the child born of the promise of God, and Ishmael was born from the slave Hagar. The twelve tribes come from Isaac and Jacob ( Israel ). Then from the 12 tribes of Israel, comes the Lion of the tribe of Judah.......Jesus Christ. This is why " all nations will be blessed through you " as God promises Abraham.

So, should we take a religion created by Mohammed some 600 years after the start of Christianity, over what God has already revealed in scripture ?

[JAYMZ]

Not exactly. I think the concept of messiah develops gradually in the Tanak and that there was and will be more than one fulfilment.

....well, Jesus did warn his disciples about false " christs " that would come and such.

[JAYMZ]

We are saying that Baha'u'llah's revelation fulfills them all.

So in essense, Baha'i is just another religion vying for the hearts and minds of people.

Why Isn't the Báb just another founder of a " religion " in the same tradition like Mohammed, Jim Jones and Sung Myoung Moon ?


But it does seem like this is a belief system that sees Christ and his work through " Islamic " colored glasses.

[smaneck]

I still don't understand what this has to do with the fact that Isaac was the child born of the promise of God, and Ishmael was born from the slave Hagar.

That doesn't change the fact that Ishmael was Abraham's legitimate first-born son.

The twelve tribes come from Isaac and Jacob ( Israel )

.

Twelve tribes came from Ishmael as well. If Ishmael was not a partner to the Covenant as Christians want to believe then why was he circumcised?

So, should we take a religion created by Mohammed some 600 years after the start of Christianity, over what God has already revealed in scripture ?

Why insist on holding on to what God may told people thousands of years ago while ignoring what He is telling you today?

[smaneck]

....well, Jesus did warn his disciples about false " christs " that would come and such.

He also said that the way on distinguishes the true from the false is by their fruits.

[smaneck]

So in essense, Baha'i is just another religion vying for the hearts and minds of people.

Not at all:

"This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it -- verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 136)

Why Isn't the Báb just another founder of a " religion " in the same tradition like Mohammed, Jim Jones and Sung Myoung Moon ?

I could ask you the same question about Jesus, but His life speaks for itself as does the Bab's.

But it does seem like this is a belief system that sees Christ and his work through " Islamic " colored glasses.

Judge for yourself whether these sentiments are typically:

"We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? . . . Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!"

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 88)

We certainly don't deny anything that the Qur'an has to say about Christ, but the Baha'i understanding of Christ is quite distinct from the average Muslim's which I think you'll see if you peruse this article which was written in the Journal of the American Academy of Religion: http://bahai-library.com/cole_behold_man

The Baha'i Faith has the same relation to Islam that Christianity has to Judaism. We aren't ashamed of that. The Qur'an is as vital to understanding the Baha'i messages as the Old Testament is vital to understanding the new. Most importantly, we need to fully grasp the concept of Covenant that connects them all. I wrote an article about this on my blog:
http://bahai-islam.blogspot.com/