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What if the Early Creed was about the Virgin Mary, not Jesus?

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  • What if the Early Creed was about the Virgin Mary, not Jesus?

    Many Christians, of all denominations, place a great deal of importance on the Witness List in the Early Creed found in First Corinthians 15 as the best evidence for the supernatural claim of the Resurrection of Jesus. Christians proclaim: "This witness list must be treated as we would treat eyewitness testimony to a traffic accident in a court of law. If so many eyewitnesses claimed to have seen the same car accident, that is excellent proof of the validity of the claim that the accident really had occurred."

    But we aren't talking about a car accident. We are talking about a supernatural event. Just because multiple persons claim to have seen alien abductions, should we believe them? Just because thousands of people claim to have seen, talked to, and touched their recently departed loved one---should we believe them?

    Here is something for Protestant Christians to think about. If the Apostle Paul had included a Marian Creed in one of his epistles, would you believe the eyewitness claims in that passage? Let's look at a hypothetical example:

    For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received:

    That the Holy Virgin Mother intercedes for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that she was buried in Jerusalem, but when her grave was later opened, it was empty, and only her grave clothes remained.

    She then appeared to Juan Diego on a hill in Mexico.

    Then to Sister Catherine Luboure in Paris, to the Jewish convert Alphonse Ratisbonne in Rome, to Melanie Calvat and Maximim Giraud in France, eighteen times to Bernadette Soubirous in Lourdes, and to Francisco Marto, Jacinta Marto, and Lucia Dos Santos in Fatima, Portugal.

    In her final apparition to the children of Fatima, she caused many tens of thousands to see the sun appear to fall and spin like a wheel of fire, several times, as proof of her presence among them. In 1942, most of these eyewitnesses were still alive, though some had died.

    Then she appeared in Beuaraing, Banneux, and Syracuse to more devout Catholics.

    Last of all, as to one untimely born, she appeared also to me.


    Virgin Mary apparition in Underpass.jpg
    Superstitious people see what they want to see.
    You see the Virgin Mary...I see a water stain.
    Last edited by Gary; 07-25-2016, 01:18 PM.

  • #2
    A new low on the idiot scale, Gary.

    What if Paul included a creed that said Jesus was a robot from the future?

    derp.

    Comment


    • #3
      ps if thousands of people claimed to see the SAME dead person alive again at the same time, including his friends who knew him very well and actually met and talked to the risen guy, then yeah I would probably believe them.

      Oh yeah I already do.

      Comment


      • #4
        bacon
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          ps if thousands of people claimed to see the SAME dead person alive again at the same time, including his friends who knew him very well and actually met and talked to the risen guy, then yeah I would probably believe them.

          Oh yeah I already do.
          Thousands??

          So the book in question says...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Gary View Post
            Thousands??

            So the book in question says...
            That was your word.

            Comment


            • #7
              Gary...what?????
              Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

              Comment


              • #8
                Don't know why anybody responds to Gary. He is never interested in honest discussion, but is simply trolling.



                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Gary View Post
                  Thousands??

                  So the book in question says...
                  And what YOU said in your OP. Pay attention.
                  Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                    Don't know why anybody responds to Gary. He is never interested in honest discussion, but is simply trolling.

                    Yeah, I don't know....
                    Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                      And what YOU said in your OP. Pay attention.
                      Wrong.

                      What I said in the OP is that "thousands" of people have claimed to have interacted with their deceased loved one. That's it. This was not in reference to Jesus. Sparko's comment is in regards to Jesus and in Sparko's comment he infers that "thousands" of people saw Jesus.

                      Sparko: "ps if thousands of people claimed to see the SAME dead person alive again at the same time, including his friends who knew him very well and actually met and talked to the risen guy, then yeah I would probably believe them."

                      My scenario said nothing about "risen" people, just dead people. Therefore Sparko has inserted Jesus into this scenario and it is Sparko's inferred claim that thousands of people claimed to see Jesus alive again, including his friends who talked to him that I responded to with the statement: "So says the book in question..."

                      Got it, now?
                      Last edited by Gary; 07-25-2016, 02:05 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gary View Post
                        Wrong.

                        What I said in the OP is that "thousands" of people have claimed to have interacted with their deceased loved one. That's it. This was not in reference to Jesus. Sparko's comment is in regards to Jesus and in Sparko's comment he infers that "thousands" of people saw Jesus.

                        Sparko: "ps if thousands of people claimed to see the SAME dead person alive again at the same time, including his friends who knew him very well and actually met and talked to the risen guy, then yeah I would probably believe them."

                        My scenario said nothing about "risen" people, just dead people. Therefore Sparko has inserted Jesus into this scenario and it is Sparko's inferred claim that thousands of people claimed to see Jesus alive again, including his friends who talked to him that I responded to with the statement: "So says the book in question..."

                        Got it, now?
                        of course your claim was a dig against the witnesses who saw the risen Jesus. duh. What other purpose would it serve to bring it up. You were claiming that lots of people see their dead ones alive again so why should we believe the witnesses who say they saw Jesus alive again? derp.

                        Except in the case of Jesus, they all (more than 500) saw the SAME person. In public. Not one at a time in their despair, but with other people there with them seeing the same thing. And since the people who knew Jesus the best also saw him, and touched him and talked to him, we know it was not some illusion or mistaken identity. That is what I was saying.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                          Don't know why anybody responds to Gary. He is never interested in honest discussion, but is simply trolling.

                          Sparko is our resident troll magent. Well at the very least, he says he is a troll magent. Am I wrong again?
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            of course your claim was a dig against the witnesses who saw the risen Jesus. duh. What other purpose would it serve to bring it up. You were claiming that lots of people see their dead ones alive again so why should we believe the witnesses who say they saw Jesus alive again? derp.

                            Except in the case of Jesus, they all (more than 500) saw the SAME person. In public. Not one at a time in their despair, but with other people there with them seeing the same thing. And since the people who knew Jesus the best also saw him, and touched him and talked to him, we know it was not some illusion or mistaken identity. That is what I was saying.
                            Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions.

                            None of the detailed appearance stories appear in Christian literature until the last quarter of the first century (they don't even appear in the first gospel, the original version of Mark). As for the witnesses in the list in First Corinthians 15, what exactly did they all see?

                            A bright light...same as Paul????

                            We don't know because Paul doesn't tell us. For all we know, all the original appearance claims involved the emotionally distraught disciples having vivid dreams, visions, trances, or group experiences involving mistaken perceptions of natural phenomena...all involving bright lights!

                            Bright light appears to group of people.jpg
                            Jesus?
                            Last edited by Gary; 07-25-2016, 02:27 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              Sparko is our resident troll magent. Well at the very least, he says he is a troll magent. Am I wrong again?
                              Yes. Yes you are. I am a troll magnet, not a magent.


                              Comment

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