Fasting

[NorrinRadd]

Spending your time in prayer, Bible reading, and Christian fellowship (when not alone) make a big difference. When I fasted with a spiritual end in mind it was not all that hard, and had a positive outcome. Times when I just abstained from food was not pleasant, and had no spiritual benefits.

I'm glad you find that beneficial. That was exactly the context that was NOT beneficial to me.

[NorrinRadd]

FTR, my objection is not to fasting, or even to people saying they found it to be good and uplifting. My objection is to them claiming it is something we (Xians in general) "ought" to do. That implies a "religious works" mindset; even when that is not the case, it implies non-fasting Xians are somehow defective in their practice or experience, since they are not doing something that they "ought" to do. There is no Scriptural warrant for placing such bonds on them.

[One Bad Pig]

FTR, my objection is not to fasting, or even to people saying they found it to be good and uplifting. My objection is to them claiming it is something we (Xians in general) "ought" to do. That implies a "religious works" mindset; even when that is not the case, it implies non-fasting Xians are somehow defective in their practice or experience, since they are not doing something that they "ought" to do. There is no Scriptural warrant for placing such bonds on them.

If you were approaching fasting back then the way you are here, I reiterate that you are approaching it with the wrong attitude. It seems to me that "works"-averse Christians tend to categorize whatever they don't want to do as a "work" so they can use the excuse of "not doing works for salvation" to not do it. Those who are hung up on "works" need to go and re-read the Epistle of James. The NT strongly implies that Christians will fast, and there has always been a tradition of fasting in the church. Do you need to fast to be saved? No. That doesn't mean you should downplay fasting as a "work" however.

[NorrinRadd]

If you were approaching fasting back then the way you are here, I reiterate that you are approaching it with the wrong attitude. It seems to me that "works"-averse Christians tend to categorize whatever they don't want to do as a "work" so they can use the excuse of "not doing works for salvation" to not do it. Those who are hung up on "works" need to go and re-read the Epistle of James. The NT strongly implies that Christians will fast, and there has always been a tradition of fasting in the church. Do you need to fast to be saved? No. That doesn't mean you should downplay fasting as a "work" however.

I suggest YOU re-read James. Describe to me the nature of the "works" he associates with genuine faith.

Also, FTR, the idea of doing works "to be saved" is not the only aberrant understanding of the pro-works crew. There is also the mistaken notion that certain activities "demonstrate" who is or is not a "proper" Xian.

ETA: Not surprisingly, we also have starkly different perceptions of what the NT "strongly" implies. I find a grand total of *three* references to the practice after the institution of the New Covenant -- Acts 13:2-3 and 14:23. Also, I am a Protestant, more specifically an Evangelical, and even more narrowly, a Pentecostal; as such, it will not surprise you to hear that I am inherently suspicious of "traditions" that have supposedly "always" been around.

[Cow Poke]

If you were approaching fasting back then the way you are here, I reiterate that you are approaching it with the wrong attitude. It seems to me that "works"-averse Christians tend to categorize whatever they don't want to do as a "work" so they can use the excuse of "not doing works for salvation" to not do it. Those who are hung up on "works" need to go and re-read the Epistle of James. The NT strongly implies that Christians will fast, and there has always been a tradition of fasting in the church. Do you need to fast to be saved? No. That doesn't mean you should downplay fasting as a "work" however.

I am saved by grace through faith, not works, but I do works because I am saved.

[Paula]

I have to say I don't think I've really had many discussions on fasting and the discussion thus far has given me a lot of food for thought (no pun intended). There seems to be a lot of variety in what constitutes fasting and it makes me wonder whether or not there is more value to certain kinds of fasting or if its just all individualized/traditional.

Here's a list breaking down the various methods and dimensions mentioned so far that I've noted:

1. Types of fasting:
a) total fast (no food, only water)
b) partial fast (limited food like bread and water)
c) category fast (giving up meat, milk, etc)
d) non-food fast (giving up something other than food)

2. Length: 24 hours, 30 hours, 20 days

3. Frequency, a few posters mentioned having fasting incorporated into their Christian life but I don't think anyone mentioned what the frequency should/could be

4. Group fasting vs individual fasting

5. Concerns about fasting listed or implied in this thread so far:
a) offending others at mealtime
b) medical conditions
c) jobs that make it difficult
d) works salvation

So what among these variations counts as "fasting". Do all of them or only some of them?

[One Bad Pig]

I am saved by grace through faith, not works, but I do works because I am saved.

I agree 100%.

[One Bad Pig]

I suggest YOU re-read James. Describe to me the nature of the "works" he associates with genuine faith.

Also, FTR, the idea of doing works "to be saved" is not the only aberrant understanding of the pro-works crew. There is also the mistaken notion that certain activities "demonstrate" who is or is not a "proper" Xian.

You seem to be laboring under the conception that I think Christians need to do works to be saved. Those who are saved will do works. Do you understand the distinction?

ETA: Not surprisingly, we also have starkly different perceptions of what the NT "strongly" implies. I find a grand total of *three* references to the practice after the institution of the New Covenant -- Acts 13:2-3 and 14:23.

When Jesus says, "when you fast...." and His words are recorded by multiple gospels, that's a strong implication in my book. As you note, the early church practiced it.

Also, I am a Protestant, more specifically an Evangelical, and even more narrowly, a Pentecostal; as such, it will not surprise you to hear that I am inherently suspicious of "traditions" that have supposedly "always" been around.

As one who converted from fundamentalist Evangelical protestantism, I find the rejection of tradition narrowminded and unfortunate.

[Cow Poke]

I am saved by grace through faith, not works, but I do works because I am saved.

I agree 100%.

And that has been my understanding - my apologies if I seemed to be implying otherwise.

[NorrinRadd]

You seem to be laboring under the conception that I think Christians need to do works to be saved. Those who are saved will do works. Do you understand the distinction?

Completely. But the other issue is what *kinds* of "works"? Even James explicitly says that works "show" that one has faith, as opposed to being *added to* faith in order to achieve salvation. But what *kinds* of "works" does James describe? Does he talk about things like memorizing Scripture or attending "church" regularly or "fasting"? Or does he focus elsewhere?

When Jesus says, "when you fast...." and His words are recorded by multiple gospels, that's a strong implication in my book. As you note, the early church practiced it.

Rehash.

As one who converted from fundamentalist Evangelical protestantism, I find the rejection of tradition narrowminded and unfortunate.

Fine. I find the credulous embrace of tradition to be empty-headed and unfortunate.

[One Bad Pig]

Completely.

Given what you follow this with, color me skeptical.

But the other issue is what *kinds* of "works"? Even James explicitly says that works "show" that one has faith, as opposed to being *added to* faith in order to achieve salvation. But what *kinds* of "works" does James describe? Does he talk about things like memorizing Scripture or attending "church" regularly or "fasting"? Or does he focus elsewhere?

I'm not sure any of this is material. Yes, James says that works show that one has faith. I agree that works are not "added to" faith in order to achieve salvation.

Rehash.

Dodge.

Fine. I find the credulous embrace of tradition to be empty-headed and unfortunate.

Good thing I don't credulously embrace tradition.

[Jedidiah]

Even James explicitly says that works "show" that one has faith, as opposed to being *added to* faith in order to achieve salvation.

There is nothing in there that involves achieving salvation, as OBP pointed out. You obviously do not understand the distinction between acts resulting from salvation and acts earning salvation.

[NorrinRadd]

There is nothing in there that involves achieving salvation, as OBP pointed out. You obviously do not understand the distinction between acts resulting from salvation and acts earning salvation.

You obviously did not understand what I wrote.

[Jedidiah]

You obviously did not understand what I wrote.

You are correct. I apologize. I forgot how to read apparently.

[simplicio]

I disagree--Muslims don't merely have a heretical understanding of God but rather they worship another god altogether. Not only because they deny the Trinity and Jesus' deity but because morally they are different. The God of the Bible is perfectly holy while the Islamic god will admit people to paradise whose "good" outweighs their "bad" (or who die while killing unbelievers). The God of the Bible loves everyone while the Islamic god only loves Muslims. The Bible says that heaven is spiritual perfection worshiping and loving God while Islam offers having sex with virgins (and maybe your wife, if she gets in at all, since hell is mostly composed of women). Jesus says love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. The Islamic religion teaches its followers to fight those who aren't Muslims. Jesus says that if a man looks at a woman with lust then he's committed adultery with her while Islam permits prostitution (what they call "temporary marriage") not to mention sex with prepubescence girls.

These are two totally different gods.

How would many Christians' conception of G-d hold up? Does G-d love, or does he hate a significant portion of the population, if heaven is spiritual perfection then why the streets paved with gold, do Christians allow serial adultrous relationships by downplaying Jesus words on marriage?

The difference in views of the divine are just as large within Christianity as between the two religions, so I wonder if the measures you mention really show a different god or a different conception of the Infinite Spirit?