Islam, Violence, Liberalism, and the West

[Scrawly]

And to me as a Christian.

"Classical" Sharia is not what we are discussing when we discuss the violence of Muslim extremists.

It actually could be argued that fanatical, fundamentalist Islamist groups such as ISIS are in fact practicing "Classical Sharia". In part of the Sharia/Islamic law, there are certain crimes specifically listed in the Quran along with their punishments. Those offenses are prescribed a specific punishment in the Quran, known as hadd or hudud(1) punishments - the punishment for these crimes are "fixed" as they find their root in clear Quranic commands. Punishments prescribed by the Quran for these offenses range from lashes (alcohol consumption), stoning (pre-martial sex), amputation (theft), and death (apostasy and robbery). The resurgence of fundamentalist Islamic groups such as ISIS have faithfully reintroduced the practice of these commands, and follow them to the letter.

In any case Sharia is not consistent with the Constitution of the United States.

That's right. As long as a government rests upon and upholds basic humans rights and freedoms, the Sharia/Islamic law is superfluous in non-Islamic nations. Those Muslims who cannot accept this are free, to return or immigrate to, Islamic nations.

Sources:

(1) http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/.../opr/t125/e757

[Jedidiah]

It actually could be argued that fanatical, fundamentalist Islamist groups such as ISIS are in fact practicing "Classical Sharia".

I was only referring to the "Classical Sharia" described by siam. I wanted to avoid the discussion you are getting into here.

[Scrawly]

I was only referring to the "Classical Sharia" described by siam. I wanted to avoid the discussion you are getting into here.

Sure, I simply elected to substantiate your following statement: "..in any case Sharia is not consistent with the Constitution of the United States." I chose to substantiate that statement by highlighting the inherent religious nature of Sharia by briefly discussing Hadd. Finally, I concluded that the more benign side of Sharia is superfluous and redundant when human rights and freedoms are already in effect.

Hopefully you or other readers found some of that helpful. The discussion you were having can continue in the direction you wish.

[Scrawly]

My apologies if this derails the thread to an extent but these are two pertinent videos that serve as an excellent case study that I feel are necessary to bolster my points on sharia law. These videos also provide a glimpse into what I believe is the Muslim worldview and their dominate religious narrative:

[siam]

Drunk drivers are and should be prosecuted and held responsible. Likewise, incompetent or irresponsible doctors or other medical professionals can be held responsible through civil courts. So your implication that these things are considered acceptable is wrong. Furthermore, I do not know of anyone who defends these crimes or irresponsible practices in the name of their religion.

So you are saying crimes done for greed are not as bad as crimes done allegedly for "religion"?.
...and I also do not know anyone who defends crimes allegedly "for religion"---as far as my values as a Muslim is concerned---a crime is a crime.
Yet, in some countries millions are spent to "prevent" crimes "for religion" even though in terms of scale they makeup a miniscule percentage, yet not much seems to be spent on free-education for medical students so that there are more doctors and nurses---which will relieve some of the overload and reduce medical errors, or on building efficient and safe public transport networks---which would reduce the substantial number of deaths these factors cause...or for that matter---reduce the military budget and the subcontracting of weapons/ammunition manufactures--so that other nations are NOT destabilized and traumatized and people don't have to flee their destroyed countries to "immigrate". All of these industries have powerful lobbyists and they have these lobbyists because they want to protect their profits---that is why politicians who are paid by these lobbyists don't bring up these crimes or their solutions. And in a democracy---the politicians don't need pay attention because the morals of the citizens are such that they go into insane hysterics only when some madman says the words "allahuakbar" but otherwise are uninterested in the more massive criminal activities of those who enable or allow to "kill for profit".....?....

[siam]

And to me as a Christian.

"Classical" Sharia is not what we are discussing when we discuss the violence of Muslim extremists. In any case Sharia is not consistent with the Constitution of the United States. I think we are equally aghast at the current moral status of the USA, but that does not mean that Sharia becomes acceptable in terms of individual rights.

Sharia cannot be enforced on non-Muslims and anyway, there is more than one "sharia" (at last 5 major schools of Sharia)....

It is good we find common ground in our values. That is how it is also for Muslim citizens of your country and together you can build a good nation. There can be many possibilities of mutual co-operations as brothers of the same human family.

[Spartacus]

Sorry, y'all, I'm going to have to take a step back from this thread for a few (more) days. Personal stuff.

[robrecht]

So you are saying crimes done for greed are not as bad as crimes done allegedly for "religion"?.

Where in the world did you get that idea? Try to focus on what I have actually said and not on twisting my words into something I cannot even recognize.

...and I also do not know anyone who defends crimes allegedly "for religion"---as far as my values as a Muslim is concerned---a crime is a crime.

You may not know anyone personally, but certainly you are aware of religious extremists who justify killing innocent civilians in the name of religion, right?

Yet, in some countries millions are spent to "prevent" crimes "for religion" even though in terms of scale they makeup a miniscule percentage, yet not much seems to be spent on free-education for medical students so that there are more doctors and nurses---which will relieve some of the overload and reduce medical errors, or on building efficient and safe public transport networks---which would reduce the substantial number of deaths these factors cause...or for that matter---reduce the military budget and the subcontracting of weapons/ammunition manufactures--so that other nations are NOT destabilized and traumatized and people don't have to flee their destroyed countries to "immigrate". All of these industries have powerful lobbyists and they have these lobbyists because they want to protect their profits---that is why politicians who are paid by these lobbyists don't bring up these crimes or their solutions. And in a democracy---the politicians don't need pay attention because the morals of the citizens are such that they go into insane hysterics only when some madman says the words "allahuakbar" but otherwise are uninterested in the more massive criminal activities of those who enable or allow to "kill for profit".....?....

You are painting with a pretty broad brush here. If you are interested in having a discussion with me, however, it may interest you to know that I do believe in social democracies that support public funded education, including for medical students. And that is completely unrelated to my disgust at those who kill innocent civilians in the name of religion.

[Sparko]

siam are you seriously equating a drunk driver with a terrorist bombing a building, or shooting up a school?

[Scrawly]

Yes, siam, do you think it is appropriate and necessary to acknowledge that violence/attacks perpetrated by Muslims is in fact fundamentally religous in nature? It need not be the only explanation for attacks/violence, but do you think it is necessary for the Muslim world to acknowledge that the religious component is indeed a significant factor that ought not be ignored?

Furthermore, do you acknowledge that there is a relatively large fundamentalist presence within the Muslim world that aspires to impose sharia on a global scale whether peacefully or forcefully when the time is ripe? Do you believe that these same Muslim fundamentalists take literally, and seriously, certain surahs in the Quran that are seemingly diametrically opposed to social cohesion, harmony, and the basic human project of progress, tolerance, and acceptance? Do you believe that these Muslim fundamentalists view your version of Islam as a liberal, scholarly contortion that is attempting to reform away the very essence of Islam?

If you acknowledge the above, would you say, therefore, that the house of Islam is growing increasingly divided and has entered a state of crisis and confusion?

[siam]

@ robrecht, Scrawley,

justify killing innocent civilians---Consider, ...The U.S. attacked Iraq and justified it by saying they wanted to "spread democracy"---does this mean that all democracies are violent extremists who want to "rule the world" by force? Does this mean that the U.S. soldiers who killed in the name of "democracy" are heinous criminals?
The U.S. has callously dismissed its killings of innocent civilians as "unavoidable collateral damage"---because its in a "war" ---well a war has two sides and if the other side kills "your" innocent civilians---why is this not "unavoidable collateral damage"?
---There is something very wrong with the way your politicians and media are framing this narrative---there are moral discrepancies...

It was OK for the U.S. to believe in a myth (non-existent WMD) and attack and destroy another country---but when someone else believes in a myth (God)---its not ok?

The U.S. has around a 1000 military bases around the world---if anyone can be accused of "world domination"---it is most certainly the United States of America.
The article may be biased---but it is one opinion---
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-wor...ary-bases/5564
"The US has established its control over 191 governments which are members of the United Nations. The conquest, occupation and/or otherwise supervision of these various regions of the World is supported by an integrated network of military bases and installations which covers the entire Planet (Continents, Oceans and Outer Space). All this pertains to the workings of an extensive Empire, the exact dimensions of which are not always easy to ascertain.

Known and documented from information in the public domaine including Annual Reports of the US Congress, we have a fairly good understanding of the strucuture of US military expenditure, the network of US military bases and the shape of this US military-strategic configuration in different regions of the World.

The objective of this article is to build a summary profile of the World network of military bases, which are under the jurisdiction and/or control of the US. The spatial distribution of these military bases will be examined together with an analysis of the multibillion dollar annual cost of their activities."

One could say, the military and foreign policies of the U.S. are not only in opposition to Christian values---but those of the constitution and the sentiments expressed in the U.S. declaration of independence....which were against oppression and exploitation....

...also...The problem of glory-seeking youth is not just a Muslim concern---it should be of concern to everyone....consider...

U.S. youth (some of them mercenaries) are joining the Kurdish Peshmerga and various other organization in the Iraq/Syria region...
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/0...104739660.html
....and....
Private military and securities companies (mercenaries) are booming (apparently a U.K. company is leading the market)....(are these "terrorists"? or murder for hire does not qualify?)

Some opinions from other articles---
https://www.theguardian.com/business...y-says-charityhttp://www.globalresearch.ca/the-pri...ies-pmsc/21826

[siam]

siam are you seriously equating a drunk driver with a terrorist bombing a building, or shooting up a school?

A school shooting occurs once in a while and because the perpetrators are random (and ill), there is not much one can do in terms of prevention---you could profile, tag, or whatever (and further alienate and traumatize) all ill/depressed people. Such futile efforts will cost money---which could have been spent on solving/reducing a problem that may actually have a solution---fatalities caused by vehicular accidents....which occur on a DAILY basis---not just occasionally....and its devastation effects more families....

[siam]

...though, reducing guns and striving to become a more caring society might go a long way in reducing such violent crimes....?....

[Sparko]

A school shooting occurs once in a while and because the perpetrators are random (and ill), there is not much one can do in terms of prevention---you could profile, tag, or whatever (and further alienate and traumatize) all ill/depressed people. Such futile efforts will cost money---which could have been spent on solving/reducing a problem that may actually have a solution---fatalities caused by vehicular accidents....which occur on a DAILY basis---not just occasionally....and its devastation effects more families....

We do have laws against drunk driving and severe penalties. But it isn't even in the same category as terrorist attacks. That you would try to conflate the two is completely ridiculous. We are not comparing the numbers of deaths but the motivations and types of deaths. A terrorist is trying to cause fear and considers his actions as "war"

[Sparko]

...though, reducing guns and striving to become a more caring society might go a long way in reducing such violent crimes....?....

which? drunk driving? how? do drunk drivers go down the road shooting at people now?

Terrorism? How? Do you think that terrorist are going to obey gun laws?