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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Determinism & Paul

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  • #31
    Whenever I read posts on the internet, either from reformers or non-reformed, inevitably all their points are made under the auspices of freewill. Even when denied, it is relied upon to render their posts valid and understandable. I now refuse to fall into the abyss that I see so many opponents fall into; clearly the bible expresses the position that God incited David: Still, knowing that God does deal with men individually from time, I find no reason/cause to see this as God establishing doctrinal positions that apply to all. Does that fact that God incited David mean that he incites me to do evil also?

    The bible speaks specifically concerning man’s freewill, yet it never says that it does not exist. This position is left to personal exegesis. How can that which the bible concludes carry less weight than man’s personal exegesis of the bible...
    1.Ezra 7:13
    I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
    Ezra 7:12-14 (in Context) Ezra 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

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    • #32
      Originally posted by RBerman View Post
      It certainly is a shocking passage for modern sensibilities. The ancients attributed everything to the divine will. Modern Westerners, for longstanding cultural reasons going back to the Renaissance at least, hold unbiblical notions about the importance of individual autonomy.
      The ancients attributed everything to the divine will.
      This I disagree with. What evidence do you have to show that this attitude ever existed, especially when it comes to sin? The bible empirically states that Satan is the Father of lies, do we now bestow this dubious honor on God...
      Last edited by dacristoy; 03-08-2014, 10:11 AM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
        This I disagree with. What evidence do you have to show that this attitude ever existed, especially when it comes to sin? The bible empirically states that Satan is the Father of lies, do we now bestow this dubious honor on God...
        We just looked at a text which shows God inciting David to sin and then punishing him for it. How many examples do you need?
        Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing on his right and on his left. And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’

        "One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’

        “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.

        “‘I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.

        “‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

        “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.” (2 Chron 18:18-22)

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        • #34
          Originally posted by RBerman View Post
          They are both approaching the same basic issue about God and sin.
          To allow something, versus causing are so different concepts that it is virtually impossible to equate them as the same.

          Indeed. And the Bible doesn't encourage men to value it. So I find it hard to say that it's the explanation for the problem of evil.
          Yet the bible incessantly encourages men to turn their will towards obedience to God. To do differently "is" sin.

          My basis for denying libertarian free will is that I do not find it in Scripture.
          we agree, I cannot find it in scripture also.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
            To allow something, versus causing are so different concepts that it is virtually impossible to equate them as the same.
            In either case, we have a God who could prevent sin if he intended to do so, and yet we have sin. Clearly God does not intend to prevent the sins that occur. We don't know why, and I find "God likes human free will more than He hates sin" to be both unsatisfying philosophically and unsupportable biblically.

            Yet the bible incessantly encourages men to turn their will towards obedience to God. To do differently "is" sin.
            The Bible commands men to obey God. It doesn't have a lot to say about the nature of "their will," which is more of a philosophical construct.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by RBerman View Post
              In either case, we have a God who could prevent sin if he intended to do so, and yet we have sin. Clearly God does not intend to prevent the sins that occur. We don't know why, and I find "God likes human free will more than He hates sin" to be both unsatisfying philosophically and unsupportable biblically.
              God could also save the whole of creation. God can also do this, do that; these are areas of God that we would be wise to pass by and stick tightly to what the bible does and does not say. we are not privy to many of the purposes and intentions of God. What I find under this concept is the fact that the auspices of freewill are still alive and well.


              The Bible commands men to obey God. It doesn't have a lot to say about the nature of "their will," which is more of a philosophical construct.
              What are the ramifications of this comment. The bible speaks volumes concerning the fallen nature of man. God knows this, yet he still commands us to obey. The fact that he sent a savior to us demonstrates his grace and mercy inspite of...

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              • #37
                Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                We just looked at a text which shows God inciting David to sin and then punishing him for it. How many examples do you need?
                Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing on his right and on his left. And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’

                "One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’

                “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.

                “‘I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.

                “‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

                “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.” (2 Chron 18:18-22)
                I do not deny this, my area of concern is; is this an example of how God deals with all men. or is it specific to David and the circumstances under which God incited him.

                I AM NOT DENYING THE SPECIFICITY OF SCRIPTURE...

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                  God could also save the whole of creation. God can also do this, do that; these are areas of God that we would be wise to pass by and stick tightly to what the bible does and does not say. we are not privy to many of the purposes and intentions of God.
                  I agree.

                  What I find under this concept is the fact that the auspices of freewill are still alive and well.
                  Or more precisely, the question is exactly what versions of "free will" the Bible does and does not support.

                  The Bible commands men to obey God. It doesn't have a lot to say about the nature of "their will," which is more of a philosophical construct.
                  What are the ramifications of this comment. The bible speaks volumes concerning the fallen nature of man. God knows this, yet he still commands us to obey. The fact that he sent a savior to us demonstrates his grace and mercy inspite of...
                  True. The "ramifications" of my comment are that the Bible never directly or indirectly teaches that God values libertarian free will so much that he would rather men have it than that men remain sinless. What little it says on related topics, it seems to me, points the other direction entirely.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                    I agree.


                    Or more precisely, the question is exactly what versions of "free will" the Bible does and does not support.
                    Absolutely...


                    True. The "ramifications" of my comment are that the Bible never directly or indirectly teaches that God values libertarian free will so much that he would rather men have it than that men remain sinless. What little it says on related topics, it seems to me, points the other direction entirely.
                    With it or without it, libertarian or otherwise, sin is still a fact of life. Freewill was manifested the very first time man chose to disobey God. First came freewill, then came disobedience...

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                      With it or without it, libertarian or otherwise, sin is still a fact of life. Freewill was manifested the very first time man chose to disobey God. First came freewill, then came disobedience...
                      Depending on what you think "freewill" is, I may or may not agree with you.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                        He wrote a large portion of a book of the Bible.
                        That's something of an exaggeration. Possibly he composed a Psalm or two, and that's about it.

                        Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                        Hebrews 11:32 lists him among those whose faith in God we would do well to emulate.
                        So you approve of rape, murder and having yourself worshiped as God? Hebrews is a strange book. It even exalts Abraham who in defiance of God, prostituted his wife to the potential detriment of his hosts - hence YHWH's intervention not once but three times...

                        You might find my observances very negative, but I consider them very positive. For if God would choose such scum for his advocates, I and others have a chance...

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                          That's something of an exaggeration. Possibly he composed a Psalm or two, and that's about it.
                          Or seventy-two.

                          So you approve of rape, murder and having yourself worshiped as God? Hebrews is a strange book. It even exalts Abraham who in defiance of God, prostituted his wife to the potential detriment of his hosts - hence YHWH's intervention not once but three times. You might find my observances very negative, but I consider them very positive. For if God would choose such scum for his advocates, I and others have a chance...
                          It's not a question of what I approve. If God says that Abraham and David, for all their flaws, are examples of the faith that we must emulate, then who am I to say otherwise?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                            It's not a question of what I approve. If God says that Abraham and David, for all their flaws, are examples of the faith that we must emulate, then who am I to say otherwise?
                            Hebrews is one of those books that has been long disputed as authentic...As a matter of faith Abraham left his homeland and ventured into the unknown. I can't recollect any demonstration of Davids faith, seemingly he spent most of his time rebelling against YHWH, though in the Psalms, from time to time, when things went against him he made concessions in apparently sobbing pleads...ultimately to no avail as his temporal throne and kingdom were obliterated from the world...

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                              Hebrews is one of those books that has been long disputed as authentic...As a matter of faith Abraham left his homeland and ventured into the unknown. I can't recollect any demonstration of Davids faith, seemingly he spent most of his time rebelling against YHWH, though in the Psalms, from time to time, when things went against him he made concessions in apparently sobbing pleads...ultimately to no avail as his temporal throne and kingdom were obliterated from the world...
                              If the authenticity and reliability of the Bible are not points of agreement between us, then further discussion of spiritual matters is not likely to be productive.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                                Hebrews is one of those books that has been long disputed as authentic
                                What specific books do you consider authentic or not?

                                A demonstration of David's faith is when he overcame Goliath and another example is when he refused to kill King Saul for he trusted that God would make him (David) king in His own timing.
                                Last edited by foudroyant; 03-09-2014, 07:49 AM.

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