Does the Bible teach that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was conceived?

[Nathan Poe]

The New American Bible Revised Edition

The translation of Isa 7:14 according to this recent Catholic publication makes nonsense of the claim that Isaiah prophesied a virgin birth.

"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign; the young woman, pregnant and about to bear a son, shall name him Emmanuel."

Clearly Isaiah was talking about an imminent event — a “young woman” already pregnant who would shortly give birth to a son.


The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible

According to this Bible Dictionary Isa 7:14 has a “close similarity” in the Hebrew to Gen 16:11, in which Bible translations agree that the young woman mentioned there had already conceived. Isa 7:14 should be translated in the same way.

"As between the present ‘is pregnant’ and the future ‘shall be pregnant’, the Hebrew can mean either, but the close similarity to Gen 16:11 is in favour of the first alternative." The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible: Article Immanuel.

Given this information and the mistranslation of “virgin” instead of “young woman”, do you think church scholars from early on may have contorted Isaiah’s words in order to support a theological doctrine which they had created?

Clearly the words were contorted, but we still don't know by whom. We know that contemporary church scholars recognize the translation error (and indeed, not all of them acknowledge it as such; there are still some holdouts), but it doesn't tell us anything about who made the error in the first place -- Was it Matthew, or was it the early scholars?

[micah719]

Pregnant young women are not remarkable.....a pregnant virgin on the other hand is most unusual, as is stated in the verse (if you have eyes to see and ears to hear).

Joh 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
Joh 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Joh 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Joh 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
Joh 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

[Antony]

The New American Bible Revised Edition

The translation of Isa 7:14 according to this recent Catholic publication makes nonsense of the claim that Isaiah prophesied a virgin birth.

"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign; the young woman, pregnant and about to bear a son, shall name him Emmanuel."

Clearly Isaiah was talking about an imminent event — a “young woman” already pregnant who would shortly give birth to a son.

AN ANGRY ISAISH DEALING WITH A RECALCITRANT KING AHAZ

See Isa 7:10f.

The prophet Isaiah went to counsel King Ahaz at God’s behest. Isaiah offered to provide Ahaz with a sign in relation to forthcoming events. Ahaz declined: “No, I will not put the Lord to the test by asking for a sign.”

Isaiah’s anger at Ahaz’s rejection is palpable: “Listen, house of David. Are you not content to wear out men’s patience? Must you also wear out the patience of my God? Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign.”

It is only natural that an angry Isaiah would want to point Ahaz to something immediate and obvious — such as a pregnant woman. If this is what Isaiah did, then this by itself is sufficient to demolish any suggestion that he predicted a virginal conception.

As the New American Bible Revised Edition makes clear, this is exactly what Isaiah did.

The NABRE is only the most recent of the growing number of publications that have Isa 7:14 referring to a woman who is already “pregnant”. Here are some other examples:

Christian

There is a young woman with child (Moffatt Bible)
Behold, a young woman is with child (Revised Standard Version RSV)
the maiden is with child (Jerusalem Bible)
the young woman is with child (New Jerusalem Bible)
Look, the young woman is with child (New RSV)
Look, the young woman is with child (New RSV - Catholic ed.)
A young woman is with child (New English Bible)
A young woman is with child (Revised English Bible)
a young woman who is pregnant (Good News Bib;r)
a young woman who is pregnant (Good News Bible - Catholic ed.)
a young woman is now with child (Bible in Basic English)
Look! the virgin is with child and she is about to give birth (Lexham English Bible)
Look at this young woman. She is pregnant (Easy-to-Read Version - alternative rendering) *
A virgin is pregnant (Contemporary English Version) *
The virgin is pregnant (Holman Christian Standard Bible - alternative rendering) *

* According to these translations, Isaiah spoke of a virginal conception that had already taken place!

Jewish

Behold, the young woman is with child (Koren Jerusalem Bible)
Look, the young woman is with child (Jewish Publication Society Bible 1985)
Behold, the young woman is with child (Soncino Press Jewish Bible)
behold, the young woman is with child (Judaica Press Jewish Bible)

Other

Look, the young woman has conceived The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time into English[

ISAIAH NEVER MADE A PREDICTION ABOUT CONCEPTION, VIRGINAL OR OTHERWISE

The woman Isaiah spoke about was already pregnant. One does not predict (prophesy) the past. Isaiah’s prophecy concerned the future of the child soon to be born, not its conception which had already happened.

In other words, Isaiah never made a prophecy about the child’s conception, virginal or otherwise.

A prophecy that does not exist in the first place cannot be fulfilled.

[micah719]

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Joh 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
Joh 8:14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
Joh 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
Joh 8:20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Joh 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
Joh 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
Joh 8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

A pregnant young woman is no amazing sign....but a pregnant virgin is. There are hundred of prophecies fulfilled by The Lord Jesus Christ, in amazing detail beyond any human collusion. The virgin birth is essential to essential Christian doctrine and goes back even to the Garden of Eden, namely this:

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Women have eggs, not seed....save for one, very special exception.

It should not be a surprise that modern versions seek to disparage this.....the famine is here!

Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Amo 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

And beware the purveyors of falsehoods.....the professional scribes of the nicolaitan system with their "restored" "Bibles".

Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
Jer 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
Jer 23:4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Jer 23:7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
Jer 23:8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
Jer 23:9 Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness.
Jer 23:10 For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right.
Jer 23:11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD.
Jer 23:12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.
Jer 23:13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.
Jer 23:14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
Jer 23:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.
Jer 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
Jer 23:17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
Jer 23:18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
Jer 23:19 Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
Jer 23:20 The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
Jer 23:21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
Jer 23:22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
Jer 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?
Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
Jer 23:25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
Jer 23:26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
Jer 23:27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
Jer 23:28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
Jer 23:30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
Jer 23:31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.

[micah719]

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Joh 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
Joh 8:14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
Joh 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
Joh 8:20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Joh 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
Joh 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
Joh 8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

A pregnant young woman is no amazing sign....but a pregnant virgin is. There are hundred of prophecies fulfilled by The Lord Jesus Christ, in amazing detail beyond any human collusion. The virgin birth is essential to essential Christian doctrine and goes back even to the Garden of Eden, namely this:

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Women have eggs, not seed....save for one, very special exception.

It should not be a surprise that modern versions seek to disparage this.....the famine is here!

Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Amo 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

And beware the purveyors of falsehoods.....the professional scribes of the nicolaitan system with their "restored" "Bibles".

Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
Jer 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
Jer 23:4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Jer 23:7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
Jer 23:8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
Jer 23:9 Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness.
Jer 23:10 For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right.
Jer 23:11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD.
Jer 23:12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.
Jer 23:13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.
Jer 23:14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
Jer 23:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.
Jer 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
Jer 23:17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
Jer 23:18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
Jer 23:19 Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
Jer 23:20 The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
Jer 23:21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
Jer 23:22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
Jer 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?
Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
Jer 23:25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
Jer 23:26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
Jer 23:27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
Jer 23:28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
Jer 23:30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
Jer 23:31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.

[Ben Lomond]

To cut and paste endless Bible texts is absolutely no answer to the question posed in the Opening Post.

Have you gone and read this thread from the Opening Post???

The evidence is over whelming that the doctrine of Virgin Birth was never an issue between Jesus and the Temple Sanhedrin, and actually misrepresents the issues that brought Jesus into conflict with them.

I suggest you take time to read this whole thread.

Ben Lomond.

[micah719]

I was replying to antony's contention that there was no prophecy to be fulfilled. The virgin birth is fundamental to Christian faith.

The evidence is over whelming that the doctrine of Virgin Birth was never an issue between Jesus and the Temple Sanhedrin, and actually misrepresents the issues that brought Jesus into conflict with them.

Well, Pilate knew why the sanhedrin betrayed The Lord Jesus Christ:

Mar 15:9 But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
Mar 15:10 For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy.

But as to the virgin birth not being an issue for them...it was an issue for the people of Nazareth that refused to believe He was Who He said He was, and the sanhedrin may not have picked on that particular item but displayed their unbelief in it nonetheless. With The Lord, you have to take all of Him (all that He has revealed, after all He is infinite God so impossible for finite creatures to fully undertand), He is not a smorgasbord, which is why I quoted John 8:24 previously. Pardon me if I post a lot more than what I intend to quote, I hate prooftexting and decontextualisation and am keen to supply quotes with their surroundings...though sometimes it is hard and would take even more than what I post. I can only hope folks read the preceding and following Scripture, every time a verse is quoted. If more folks did that, the wolves wouldn't have such an easy time of it.

[Antony]

[SIZE=3][B]Look, the young woman is with child (Jewish Publication Society Bible 1985)
Behold, the young woman is with child (Soncino Press Jewish Bible)
behold, the young woman is with child (Judaica Press Jewish Bible)[/INDENT]

Other

Look, the young woman has conceived The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time into English[

ISAIAH NEVER MADE A PREDICTION ABOUT CONCEPTION, VIRGINAL OR OTHERWISE

The woman Isaiah spoke about was already pregnant. One does not predict (prophesy) the past. Isaiah’s prophecy concerned the future of the child soon to be born, not its conception which had already happened.

In other words, Isaiah never made a prophecy about the child’s conception, virginal or otherwise.

A prophecy that does not exist in the first place cannot be fulfilled.

ISAIAH’S PROPHECY AND ITS CONTEMPORARY NATURE

Two propositions flow from the contemporary nature of Isaiah’s prophecy.

Either, Isaiah spoke about a virginal conception in his time, in which case his prophecy pointed to a virgin birth of a child (to be called ‘Immanuel’) occurring about 735 BC,

Or, Isaiah said nothing about a virginal conception at all, in which case there is no virgin birth prophecy.


THE SECOND FULFILMENT OF ISAIAH’S PROPHECY

Matthew adapted a portion of Isaiah’s prophecy, the part that relates to the birth of a child, to Jesus. Thus Matthew saw in Jesus a second fulfilment of part of Isaiah’s prophecy.

However, if Isaiah had prophesied a virgin birth, then its dual fulfilment would mean two virgin births, Immanuel in 735 BC, and Jesus in 4 BC.

And if Isaiah did not prophesy a virgin birth, then Jesus could hardly fulfil a non-existent prophecy.


SMOKE AND MIRRORS

This dual fulfilment of Isaiah’s prophecy would seem to be an insurmountable hurdle for the virgin birth story. But we find virgin birth advocates overcome this impediment to their story by smoke and mirrors, as follows.

Their reasoning requires two versions of Isaiah’s prophecy.

One version is Isaiah’s prophecy in his own words. This version says nothing about a virgin birth. It is applied to the fulfilment in Isaiah’s time, thus avoiding a virgin birth at that time.

The second version of Isaiah’s prophecy derives from a corrupt Greek translation of it that uses the word “virgin”. It is this second version that is used to manufacture the alleged virgin birth prophecy which is then applied to Jesus, thus acquiring a unique virgin birth for him.

The inherent dishonesty in this reasoning should be obvious to all.


MATTHEW’S GOSPEL

Matthew is the only writer in the New Testament who refers to Isaiah’s prophecy.

Of course the virgin birth story largely depends on Matthew quoting the Greek mistranslation of Isaiah’s prophecy rather than what Isaiah actually said.

Some questions to ponder...
Why would Matthew attribute to Isaiah a prophecy that he never made? How could Jesus fulfil a prophecy that never was? Is it possible Matthew quoted the Greek translation in ignorance that it was a corruption of Isaiah’s words? What is the likelihood of Matthew the Jew believing the Hebrew Scriptures contained a story of a virgin birth?

.

[Antony]

ISAIAH’S PROPHECY AND ITS CONTEMPORARY NATURE
Two propositions flow from the contemporary nature of Isaiah’s prophecy...

THE SECOND FULFILMENT OF ISAIAH’S PROPHECY
Matthew adapted a portion of Isaiah’s prophecy, the part that relates to the birth of a child, to Jesus...

SMOKE AND MIRRORS
This dual fulfilment of Isaiah’s prophecy would seem to be an insurmountable hurdle for the virgin birth story. But we find virgin birth advocates overcome this impediment to their story by smoke and mirrors, as follows.

Their reasoning requires two versions of Isaiah’s prophecy...

MATTHEW’S GOSPEL
Matthew is the only writer in the New Testament who refers to Isaiah’s prophecy.

Of course the virgin birth story largely depends on Matthew quoting the Greek mistranslation of Isaiah’s prophecy rather than what Isaiah actually said...

WHEN DID THE LXX MISTRANSLATION FIND ITS WAY INTO MATTHEW’S GOSPEL?

Matthew quoted the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy when he wrote about the birth of Jesus. The pertinent question is who first used the LXX mistranslation of Isaiah 7:14 in Matthew’s gospel. Was it Matthew himself, or was it some decades later when the Greeks had hold of Matthew’s gospel that the mistranslation of Isaiah’s prophecy was insinuated into the gospel in place of what Isaiah actually said?


CORRUPTION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT MESSAGE

The New Testament itself tells us that corruption of the apostles’ preaching was foreseen, and had already started in places.

In Acts we are told Paul forecast distortion of the truth after he was gone, even from among the flock:

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

Acts 20:28-31

And in his letter to the Galatians, Paul spoke of the perversion of the gospel that had already begun:

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel —

which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:6-7

While in his second letter to the Corinthians, Paul denounced false prophets masquerading as apostles of the anointed:

And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.

For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness.

2 Cor 11:12-15

Further, Paul warned of deceptive philosophy that depends on human tradition:

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

Col 2:8

Peter echoed Paul’s warnings with his own about false teachers and bringing the way of truth into disrepute:

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them —bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories.

2 Peter 2:1-3

WHEN AND WHERE DID THE VIRGIN BIRTH STORY START?

The birth of Jesus is mentioned in only two of the gospels, and nowhere else in the New Testament.

In fact Mark’s gospel does not even consider Jesus’ birth relevant, and certainly makes no reference to Isaiah’s prophecy that Matthew quotes. For him the “beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ” begins with the role of John the Baptist, whose role, Mark says, fulfilled another of Isaiah’s prophecies. Thus Mark considered the “gospel of Jesus Christ” began when Jesus was about thirty years of age.

There is no mention in the New Testament of Jesus ever saying anything about the circumstances of his birth, nor of the apostles ever preaching anything about the matter.

So when the virgin birth story (that relies heavily on a mistranslation) found currency among the Greeks in the second century, did it derive from a faithful rendering of the New Testament, or had the NT words and meaning been corrupted by those “masquerading as apostles of Christ”? Was it based, not on the New Testament, but on Greek “tradition” (i.e. culture)? Had members from among the Christian community “perverted the gospel of Christ” and brought “the way of truth into disrepute”?

By what means can these questions be addressed?
.

[technomage]

Matthew quoted the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy when he wrote about the birth of Jesus. The pertinent question is who first used the LXX mistranslation of Isaiah 7:14 in Matthew’s gospel. Was it Matthew himself, or was it some decades later when the Greeks had hold of Matthew’s gospel that the mistranslation of Isaiah’s prophecy was insinuated into the gospel in place of what Isaiah actually said?

Our current Gospel of Matthew was written in Greek: it is not a translation of an Aramaic document; the author quotes (repeatedly) from LXX sources; this is not the only place that he demonstrates a lack of understanding of Hebrew.

Matthew may have written a book--Papias insists that he did--but if he did, the book we have is not that book.

[Antony]

WHEN AND WHERE DID THE VIRGIN BIRTH STORY START?

The birth of Jesus is mentioned in only two of the gospels, and nowhere else in the New Testament.

In fact Mark’s gospel does not even consider Jesus’ birth relevant, and certainly makes no reference to Isaiah’s prophecy that Matthew quotes. For him the “beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ” begins with the role of John the Baptist, whose role, Mark says, fulfilled another of Isaiah’s prophecies. Thus Mark considered the “gospel of Jesus Christ” began when Jesus was about thirty years of age.

There is no mention in the New Testament of Jesus ever saying anything about the circumstances of his birth, nor of the apostles ever preaching anything about the matter.

So when the virgin birth story (that relies heavily on a mistranslation) found currency among the Greeks in the second century, did it derive from a faithful rendering of the New Testament, or had the NT words and meaning been corrupted by those “masquerading as apostles of Christ”? Was it based, not on the New Testament, but on Greek “tradition” (i.e. culture)? Had members from among the Christian community “perverted the gospel of Christ” and brought “the way of truth into disrepute”?

By what means can these questions be addressed?.

GREEKS ACQUIRE LEADERSHIP IN SPREADING NT MESSAGE

The New Testament recounts the life of Jesus until his judicial murder in 30 AD and the activities of some of his followers after that event, particularly those of the apostle Paul. However, those decades surrounding the turn of the first century provide scant records relating to the continuing development of this new movement.

One observable change that occurred in these ‘hidden’ decades is the make-up of those driving the movement. Jesus and all his early followers were Jewish, and were deeply influenced by their Hebrew culture. Those that dominated the shaping of the movement from sometime in the second century onwards were of Greek culture, later joined by co-religionists from the western, Latin half of the Roman Empire.

Or put it this way. On one hand Jesus, his disciples, and Paul were exclusively Jewish, while on the other hand the ‘Church Fathers’ cannot count one Jew among their ranks.

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was one factor that played a part in this transformation.


CORRUPTION SEEPS INTO THE MESSAGE

Even in NT times, Peter and Paul warned of corruption of the message that was occurring within the movement. (See Post 534). So why should it surprise anyone if corruption continued to develop within the Christian community after the apostles had passed from the scene?

The potential for the message to be misunderstood and distorted would be greater if the mind of those receiving the message was set in a different key to those who delivered it. As someone said, you don’t put new wine in old bottles. Preaching a message shaped by Hebrew concepts to a Greek audience almost guaranteed misconceptions and misunderstandings. Acts 14:8-18 is illuminating in this respect, for it records an example where the Greeks thought two apostles were “gods come down to us in human form”:

8 In Lystra there sat a man who was lame. He had been that way from birth and had never walked.

9 He listened to Paul as he was speaking. Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed

10 and called out, “Stand up on your feet!” At that, the man jumped up and began to walk.

11 When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!”

12 Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker.

13 The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them.

14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting:

15 “Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them.

16 In the past, he let all nations go their own way.

17 Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy.”

18 Even with these words, they had difficulty keeping the crowd from sacrificing to them.

The Greek audience’s interpretation of events was consistent with their cultural mindset, done spontaneously and with fervour, but completely out of synch with what Paul and Barnabas were preaching. Is it an indicator as to what would take place when the Greeks became custodians of the Christian message?


EMERGENCE OF VIRGIN BIRTH STORY

The first mention of virgin birth in the post-NT writings appears in the letters of Ignatius circa 110-117 AD.

Virgin birth is next mentioned in the writings of Justin Martyr from circa 140 AD. He is under the impression that Isaiah prophesied a virgin birth, his misconception founded on the Greek LXX mistranslation of Isa 7:14 rendered as “virgin”.

However, Justin Martyr’s reading of Isaiah’s prophecy was not uncontested. Circa 130-200 AD three new Greek translations of the OT appeared, and each of these correctly translated the word in Isaiah’s prophecy as “young woman”.

Some 200 years later, Jerome testifies to the existence of Matthew’s gospel in Hebrew in which “it is to be noted that wherever the Evangelist, whether on his own account or in the person of our Lord the Saviour quotes the testimony of the Old Testament he does not follow the authority of the translators of the Septuagint but the Hebrew.” According to this testimony, Matthew 1:23 would have quoted Isa 7:14 from the Hebrew OT, which says nothing about a virgin birth prophecy.

If only some Bedouin chasing his goats among caves in the hills near the Dead Sea would stumble across a scroll of Matthew’s gospel from the first century!

.

[Antony]

[SIZE=3]WHEN AND WHERE DID THE VIRGIN BIRTH STORY START?

The birth of Jesus is mentioned in only two of the gospels, and nowhere else in the New Testament.

In fact Mark’s gospel does not even consider Jesus’ birth relevant, and certainly makes no reference to Isaiah’s prophecy that Matthew quotes. For him the “beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ” begins with the role of John the Baptist, whose role, Mark says, fulfilled another of Isaiah’s prophecies. Thus Mark considered the “gospel of Jesus Christ” began when Jesus was about thirty years of age.

There is no mention in the New Testament of Jesus ever saying anything about the circumstances of his birth, nor of the apostles ever preaching anything about the matter.

So when the virgin birth story (that relies heavily on a mistranslation) found currency among the Greeks in the second century, did it derive from a faithful rendering of the New Testament, or had the NT words and meaning been corrupted by those “masquerading as apostles of Christ”? Was it based, not on the New Testament, but on Greek “tradition” (i.e. culture)? Had members from among the Christian community “perverted the gospel of Christ” and brought “the way of truth into disrepute”?

By what means can these questions be addressed?.

GREEKS ACQUIRE LEADERSHIP IN SPREADING NT MESSAGE

The New Testament recounts the life of Jesus until his judicial murder in 30 AD and the activities of some of his followers after that event, particularly those of the apostle Paul. However, those decades surrounding the turn of the first century provide scant records relating to the continuing development of this new movement.

One observable change that occurred in these ‘hidden’ decades is the make-up of those driving the movement. Jesus and all his early followers were Jewish, and were deeply influenced by their Hebrew culture. Those that dominated the shaping of the movement from sometime in the second century onwards were of Greek culture, later joined by co-religionists from the western, Latin half of the Roman Empire.

Or put it this way. On one hand Jesus, his disciples, and Paul were exclusively Jewish, while on the other hand the ‘Church Fathers’ cannot count one Jew among their ranks.

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was one factor that played a part in this transformation.


CORRUPTION SEEPS INTO THE MESSAGE

Even in NT times, Peter and Paul warned of corruption of the message that was occurring within the movement. (See Post 534). So why should it surprise anyone if corruption continued to develop within the Christian community after the apostles had passed from the scene?

The potential for the message to be misunderstood and distorted would be greater if the mind of those receiving the message was set in a different key to those who delivered it. As someone said, you don’t put new wine in old bottles. Preaching a message shaped by Hebrew concepts to a Greek audience almost guaranteed misconceptions and misunderstandings. Acts 14:8-18 is illuminating in this respect, for it records an example where the Greeks thought two apostles were “gods come down to us in human form”:

8 In Lystra there sat a man who was lame. He had been that way from birth and had never walked.

9 He listened to Paul as he was speaking. Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed

10 and called out, “Stand up on your feet!” At that, the man jumped up and began to walk.

11 When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!”

12 Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker.

13 The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them.

14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting:

15 “Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them.

16 In the past, he let all nations go their own way.

17 Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy.”

18 Even with these words, they had difficulty keeping the crowd from sacrificing to them.

The Greek audience’s interpretation of events was consistent with their cultural mindset, done spontaneously and with fervour, but completely out of synch with what Paul and Barnabas were preaching. Is it an indicator as to what would take place when the Greeks became custodians of the Christian message?


EMERGENCE OF VIRGIN BIRTH STORY

The first mention of virgin birth in the post-NT writings appears in the letters of Ignatius circa 110-117 AD.

Virgin birth is next mentioned in the writings of Justin Martyr from circa 140 AD. He is under the impression that Isaiah prophesied a virgin birth, his misconception founded on the Greek LXX mistranslation of Isa 7:14 rendered as “virgin”.

However, Justin Martyr’s reading of Isaiah’s prophecy was not uncontested. Circa 130-200 AD three new Greek translations of the OT appeared, and each of these correctly translated the word in Isaiah’s prophecy as “young woman”.

Some 200 years later, Jerome testifies to the existence of Matthew’s gospel in Hebrew in which “it is to be noted that wherever the Evangelist, whether on his own account or in the person of our Lord the Saviour quotes the testimony of the Old Testament he does not follow the authority of the translators of the Septuagint but the Hebrew.” According to this testimony, Matthew 1:23 would have quoted Isa 7:14 from the Hebrew OT, which says nothing about a virgin birth prophecy.

If only some Bedouin chasing his goats among caves in the hills near the Dead Sea would stumble across a scroll of Matthew’s gospel from the first century!

.

[Ben Lomond]

Matthew’s Gospel & Virgin Birth.

Elements of the key to understanding Matthew's style of writing are:

He was writing to Jews - his Gospel is underpinned by his observance of Jewish customs, idiom and ethics - eg he of himself never uses the term “Kingdom of God.”
Whereas Jesus spoke easily of the Kingdom of Heaven, and the Kingdom of God in the one breath, Matthew only uses the term “God” when quoting Jesus.

Matthew shows good knowledge of Jewish Scripture, history, culture and idiom – indeed it underpins his Gospel.

Matthew sees in Jesus' individual life a RECAPITULATION of the history of the nation of Israel and its relationship to Jehovah God.
It is the concept of the Macrocosm in tune with the Microcosm and vice versa.
The Nation of Israel was delegated by God to project his values into the world, thus Israel is called God's first born Son.
Jesus carries this principle to its ultimate in terms of an individual Son of God - in a purely ethical sense - manifesting God's values to the world by maintaining his integrity in the face of adversity.

Just as the child IMMANUEL manifested the God with us - God on our - side principle as a living chronometer to King Ahaz in Isaiah chs 7 & 8, so too in Matthew's mind, did Jesus manifest the IMMANUEL principle as a living indicator of God with us.

THIS IS THE KEY TO UNDERSTANDING MATTHEW'S GOSPEL.

Matthew did not record a virgin birth - He said that Joseph - for very good reasons (note Jeremiah's reference to Jeconiah) - wasn't the father of Jesus.

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With the foregoing in mind, it would be highly incongruous for Matthew to have supplanted Hebrew spiritual concepts of ethical sonship of Jehovah God with those of Holy Trinity, Virgin Birth and Incarnation that emanated from pagan Greek philosophy.

The NT is liberally sprinkled with warnings by the disciples that concepts foreign to what Jesus had taught were already abounding even in their own days, - indeed Jesus had forewarned of this happening.
The matter will only be resolved by informed, cool headed analysis, not by hot blooded slinging of texts back and forth.
As Alice learned in “Wonderland”, - some people can make word mean whatever they wish them to mean. .

Mt 24:24: For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect — if that were possible. 24:25. See, I have told you ahead of time.

Lk 6:26: Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.

2Tim 4:4: They shall turn away their ears from truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2Pet 1:16: We have not followed cunningly devised fables, ...... but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

1Jn 4:1: Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2Jn 1:7: Many deceivers are entered into the world, who do not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and antichrist.

Antony’s allusion to the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls by a shepherd seeking a lost goat should not be taken lightly and laughed off, as copies of Matthew’s Gospel written in Aramaic, and which ALWAYS quoted from the Hebrew Scripture were known to exist as late as 400ad as attested by Jerome in his anthology on Illustrious Men and also the 18th century historian Edward Gibbon in his Monumental “History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.”

Ben Lomond.
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[Antony]

WHEN JESUS WAS ALIVE — THE LIVING JESUS

When Jesus was alive, his followers thought of him as a man like themselves. Early on they identified Jesus as the messiah and the son of Joseph. Soon after the resurrection two of Jesus’ followers spoke of him as “a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people.” From these and other references, it is clear that during Jesus’ lifetime his followers believed him to be a normal man. The manner of his conception was never raised by Jesus or among his followers. Why would it? They believed, like everyone else, that he was the natural son of Joseph and Mary. (Jn 1:41, 45, Lk 24:19)

Jesus’ preaching was directed at individual behaviour. In this he gave guidance as to how one enters the ‘kingdom of God’, but it also led him to speak out about establishment hypocrisy and manipulation. Jesus’ activities would have their own consequences, which in turn would put his own character to the test.

Despite how some would later find in Jesus’ words support for his divinity, the disciples did not draw this conclusion from these same words when they lived side by side with Jesus for an extended period.

The disciples did believe that Jesus was appointed by God, and that he was the long awaited Anointed One (messiah). This was something of a sore point with the priestly establishment, for Jesus was not one of them. On the other hand, Jesus was stinging in his criticism of the priestly establishment calling them hypocrites who “clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence”, “you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets”, and much more. (Mt 23)

The clash between the priestly establishment and Jesus finally came to a head in Jerusalem. They had Jesus arrested in the dark of the night, even though he had been out speaking openly to the people during the days preceding this. One of Jesus’ followers was paid money by the priests to assist the arresting party.

Following the arrest events moved quickly. Jesus was straight away taken before the chief priests and scribes. False witnesses were produced. What agitated the accusers can be gleaned by the question the High Priest put to Jesus, “Tell us if you are the Anointed, the son of God.” Jesus was found guilty of blasphemy and sentenced to death. Then those present beat him and spat in his face as they mocked him.

By morning the priests had handed Jesus to the Romans. This manoeuvre was designed to transfer responsibility for the fate of Jesus to the Romans, and thereby nullify any reaction from the people against themselves. The priests’ charge against Jesus had taken a subtle change. They now accused him of sedition. After questioning Jesus, the Roman Governor offered to release Jesus. But the pressure from the priests and the mob prevented this. Then after more humiliation and physical abuse, Jesus was crucified along with two convicted criminals.

According to the nature of crucifixion, the men did not die immediately. The crucifixions took place on the day before an important religious day for Jews. After a while Jesus’ accusers, ever mindful of religious proprieties, asked that the legs of those crucified be broken so that they might be taken away before the following day. The soldiers broke the legs of the two criminals. But when they saw Jesus was already dead, one of them simply thrust a spear into his side.


AFTER JESUS WAS DEAD — THE THEOLOGICAL JESUS

After the crucifixion in 30AD some of Jesus’ followers and some new converts recorded what they saw as significant in Jesus’ life and his teachings. Eventually these writings collectively became known as the New Testament.

When this generation fell away these writings came to be interpreted by those who shared neither the land nor the culture that had produced Jesus and his first followers. Factions put forward widely different interpretations, bitterly arguing their points of view, sometimes accompanied by violence. The nature of Jesus was finally determined by edicts of Roman emperors and the Ecumenical Councils (325-869AD).

It was still held that there was but one God, but now the one God was comprised of three persons of which Jesus was one. Eventually the term ‘Trinity’, a term unknown in the Bible, was employed to describe this configuration. Jesus, called the ‘son of God’ in the New Testament, was transformed into ‘God the Son’, a term unknown in the Bible. These interpreters of the New Testament believed from these writings that Jesus was born of a virgin, something that would have astonished Jesus’ contemporaries. And so on ...


TWO VERY DIFFERENT TYPES OF JESUS

A number of questions present themselves from the two views of Jesus described above.

a) What does the ‘living Jesus’ has in common with the ‘theological Jesus’?

b) Are the two types of Jesus complementary or at odds with each other?

c) Do the following seem apt phrases to describe Jesus’ story, as told in the Gospels: ‘character in action’, ‘clash of values’, ‘living principles’, and (as mentioned in Post 538) ‘integrity in adversity’?

d) Are ‘rigid doctrines’ the basis of the theological Jesus?

e) Do you think that the authors of these two types of Jesus had different “messages”, one calling for ‘emulation’, and the other for ‘adoration’? If so, which “message” would you connect with the living Jesus, and which one with the theological Jesus?

f) If the Bible does not say that Jesus was God Almighty, would you expect that it also does not say Jesus was born of a virgin?

g) If it was shown that the Bible says nothing about a virgin birth, do you think the structure that supports the ‘theological Jesus’ might be in danger of collapsing?

[Ben Lomond]

Where as the doctrine of virgin birth is fundamental to all Christian churches, it had NOTHING to do with the reasons why the Jewish Sanhedrin had Jesus crucified.
It actually misrepresents the issues that brought about the crucifixion. The doctrines of Holy Trinity and Virgin Birth result from Pagan Greek intellectualism of Hebrew values, ethics and principles. Both these doctrines are an abomination to mosaic Hebrew thinking.

The crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth on Passover 30ad was the culmination of conflicting ideas, values and perceptions of authority that had been simmering for some time between him and the Temple theocracy
When the NT record of Jesus’ itinerant ministry is perused it is obvious that a precipitation of these conflicting values was inevitable – especially after his outburst in the Temple as recounted in the 23rd chapter of Matthew.
The point was reached where the Temple Establishment were losing public respect by not answering Jesus’ accusations of corruption, vested interests and cronyism.

The Temple theocracy – like most totalitarian institutions - viewed society from the top down. They saw them selves as being God’s conduit to the Jewish people with authority to set the bounds of orthodox religious, political and social conduct. They administered the law and justice as both judge and jury and brooked no dissent.
Jesus on the other hand, viewed society – and the Kingdom of God – from the bottom up. He taught individual responsibility as a basis of social interaction was far more important to God than man-made creeds, traditions and animal sacrifice.

The Temple administration viewed popular compliance with the orthodoxy of their rituals and traditions as the glue that held their society together; where as Jesus placed the onus on all people as individuals to conduct them selves within the bounds of truth, compassion and justice by their own innate knowledge of them self.
Jesus claimed authority for his conduct came from Jehovah God, as also for Moses and the prophets. The Temple priests failed to recognize God’s valued in Jesus’ conduct, so they conspired his murder as a trouble making stirrer of the people.

From the NT record of his life, it is very clear from what was said by Jesus’ family, his disciples, and his enemies, they had never heard of any claim that he was born of a virgin mother, though his enemies often twisted and misrepresented his words.

When the virgin birth story is seen to be an un-biblical myth, it then becomes apparent that the churches of Christendom do not represent what Jesus of Nazareth stood for. They actually MISREPRESENT the issues and values that he lived and died for.

The irony is that Christendom and Jewry are both caught in the same web of paradox – both are caught in the same trap of self righteous ignorance. Jesus does not stand for institutionalized religion, he stands for people accepting individual responsibility by virtue of their own knowledge of them self.

The crucifixion of Jesus had absolutely NOTHING to do with any claim of his being born of virgin birth – such a claim was totally unheard of in those days. It was about the Temple priests imposing their orthodox views upon society.
The dichotomy of values between Jesus and the Sanhedrin revolved around what is more important in the sight of God – institutional orthodoxy or individual integrity???,
The same question still prevails today.

The pertinent question is “Why is this so”???

Jesus assured the people “The kingdom of God is WITHIN you.”
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