One argument against the divinity of Jesus

[Dan Zebiri]

Yes, Lord Jesus Christ did say that, but by quoting from His Jewish audience's 'law' and their scriptures.

Calling their own sources as 'your law', He juxtaposed himself and Who He really was, in contrast against what 'their laws' had said about such 'gods':

Here is the full text from where He quoted in the OT/Psalms, and addressed his Jewish detractors:

Psalm 82 - A Psalm of Asaph.

1 God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

2 "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah

3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.

4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."

5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;

7 nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince."

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; for You shall inherit all the nations!

Psalm 82 is a petition beseeching God to judge the so-called gods for their failure to maintain justice and righteousness. It is clear from the context that the 'gods' are the men whom God appointed to rule and judge His people.

Jesus Christ Himself, is quite UNLIKE these 'gods' that he quoted about, from their law.

The Psalmist provides support for viewing these gods as human beings since in v. 7 he says that they shall die like all other men. They are really mortal and can fall like weak 'gods'.

Funny that you want to quote from this passage but sneakily leave out the other relevant passages that highlight the divinity of Christ Jesus in the Johanine Gospel, like:

1) "‘My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him.."

John 10: 27-28

2) "After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: ‘Father, the time has come. Glorify YOUR SON, that YOUR SON may glorify you.

For you granted him authority over all people THAT HE (- JESUS!) MIGHT GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL THOSE YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM.

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN … For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me … All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come TO ME through them..".

John.17: 1-5

3) Was Jesus' life taken from Him by anybody??

"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life-only to take it up again. NO ONE TAKES IT FROM ME, BUT I LAY IT DOWN OF MY OWN ACCORD. I have authority ie. the POWER, to lay it down and authority to take it up again.."

John 10:17-18

4) And not in John only:

"He said to them, 'This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.' Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, 'This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.'"

Luke 24:44-49

5) His unique Sonship in Matt 11:27, and power & authority as the Judge -

"ALL things have been committed - Ie. GIVEN to me (Jesus Christ) by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

Also found in Luke 10: 22.

6) In John 5:22 Christ again calls Himself the Son of God, and elaborates:

"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father (GOD Almighty), who sent him."

So, is Jesus merely a 'mortal', not by the sampling of the verses above!

Is He DIVINE? Absolutely.

THAT's why His disciple, Thomas, called out to Jesus, and claimed Jesus Christ as: 'My LORD and my GOD'! as in John 20: 24-29.

Jesus Christ NEVER rebuked or corrected Thomas for calling Him as 'Lord and GOD'. If Christ was only an unexceptional man, and 'mortal' as amigo and other muslims blindly claim, then we will see Jesus giving Thomas such a scolding. But Jesus never did scold Thomas, instead He endorsed his confession instead!

That is clear enough proof demolishing smaneck's misrepresentation of her John quote above, and it never diminishes the absolute divinity of Jesus Christ at all, according to the actual words Jesus Christ said about Himself!

regards, Dan.

As long as you are quoting John's Gospel lets add everything Jesus said there about being God.

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[a]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside — 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? (John 10)

[smaneck]

On the other hand, if Jesus was not divine - like muslim polemicists here try very, very hard to have us believe, He - JESUS - would have given Thomas and his other followers like him, a severe REBUKE and scolding for giving Jesus SUCH WORSHIP! And he would tell them to ‘worship the true God instead’!

BUT, Jesus Christ NEVER gave them any such scolding or rebuke…THINK about that, all you muslim polemicists down here..!

Dan,

I wouldn't assume that. There was a Baha'i who complained to Baha'u'llah that some of the believers saw him as God. Baha'u'llah gave this answer:

"There are those who have attained to the highest levels of spiritual comprehension ( a`la marátib-i `irfán ) while others are different therefrom. For example, one person envisages the Unseen the Transcendent, the Inaccessible One ( God; ghayb-i maní` la yudrak) in the Person (haykal)[3] of the Manifestation ( of God; zuhúr) without making any distinction (fasl; or division) or connection ( between them; wasl; or union).Others there are who recognise the Person (haykal) of the Manifestation (of God, zuhúr ) as the Appearance of God ([Himself] or
theophany, zuhúr'u'lláh) and consider the commands and prohibitions of the Manifestation (of God, zuhúr) to be identical with such as originate with the one True God. These two positions (maqám ) are both acceptable before the throne of God. If however, the supporters of these two positions should contend and quarrel with one another in their exposition of the two perspectives, both groups are, and hath ever been, rejected. This inasmuch as the purpose of the spiritual understanding ( `irfán ) and the exposition ( dhikr) of the highest levels of the elucidation of the teachings (bayán ) is to attract the hearts, cause fellowship between souls, and further the propagation of the Cause of God. As a result of contention and disputation amongst those who hold to these two positions, there hath been and will ever result the
dissipation ( tadyí`) of the Cause of God and both groups shall return to the hellfire despite the fact that they, in their own estimation, soar in the highest horizon of spiritual understanding (bi-a`lá ufuq-i `irfán )."

http://bahai-library.com/bahaullah_lawh_jamal_burujirdi

[Dan Zebiri]

What a lame, irrelevant reply to my reply post # 196 above.

I gave seven verses that give the right context to your 'you are gods' misquotation. Viz:

John 10: 27-28
Jn 10: 17-18
Jn 17: 1-5
Luke 24: 44-49
Matthew 11: 27
Lk 10: 22, and
Jn 20: 24-29

Debunking your futile eisogesis and desperate misrepresentation.

We are not discussing bahai theories here, but the consistent fact of Jesus Christ's divinity in the canonical Gospels.

[Dan Zebiri]

What a lame, irrelevant reply to my reply post # 196 above.

I gave seven verses that give the right context to your 'you are gods' misquotation. Viz:

John 10: 27-28
Jn 10: 17-18
Jn 17: 1-5
Luke 24: 44-49
Matthew 11: 27
Lk 10: 22, and
Jn 20: 24-29

Debunking your futile eisogesis and desperate misrepresentation.

We are not discussing bahai theories here, but the consistent fact of Jesus Christ's divinity in the canonical Gospels.

[Dan Zebiri]

Looks like susan maneck has no sensible reply after all, to my Post 196 above.

Which demolishes her wild theory.

What a lame, irrelevant reply to my reply post # 196 above.

I gave seven verses that give the right context to your 'you are gods' misquotation. Viz:

John 10: 27-28
Jn 10: 17-18
Jn 17: 1-5
Luke 24: 44-49
Matthew 11: 27
Lk 10: 22, and
Jn 20: 24-29

Debunking your futile eisogesis and desperate misrepresentation.

We are not discussing bahai theories here, but the consistent fact of Jesus Christ's divinity in the canonical Gospels.

[smaneck]

Rather the 'be ye gods' provides context to the rest of Jesus' statements.

[smaneck]

Which demolishes her wild theory.

Sorry, but listing a bunch of verse numbers demolishes nothing.

[Dan Zebiri]

Not really.., Psalms 82: 1-8 provides the original pertinent context for Jesus' citing of the John 10 passage you tried to quote, or rather mis-quote.

That, rather, provides the real context for the rest of Jesus' statements, not your simplistic wrenching of his words to make it say what you, the Baha'is and muslims want him to say.

Deal with the relevant points in my post 196 above, father than run away with some more smokescreen vagaries that are totally off the point and misrepresents Jesus.

Rather the 'be ye gods' provides context to the rest of Jesus' statements.

[Dan Zebiri]

Your sweeping statements are also no more than a lazy way to ignore the verses from the canonical Gospels given that establishes the fact that Jesus clearly claimed divine status, co-equal with God Himself.

This does wipe out your wild ideas that Jesus also meant the other people listening to Him then, in the John 10 narrative 'were gods' in the same sense that He was.

[OmniSkeptical]

Joh 17:1 Jesus spoke these things and lifted up His eyes to Heaven, and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may also glorify You,
Joh 17:2 as You gave to Him authority over all flesh, so that to all which You gave to Him, He may give to them everlasting life.
Joh 17:3 And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified You on the earth. I finished the work that You gave Me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before (a world became before thee.)

(προG4253 BEFORE τουG3588 τονG3588 A κοσμονG2889 WORLD ειναιG1511 [G5750] WAS παρα G3844 WITH (or BEFORE) σοιG4671 THEE.)

[smaneck]

Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before (a world became before thee.)

That is evidence of Jesus' pre-existence but not that he is of the same essence as God.

Abdu'l-Baha in his commentary on this passage writes:

There are two kinds of priorities: one is essential and is not preceded by
a cause, but its existence is in itself, as, for example, the sun has
light in itself, for its shining is not dependent on the light of other
stars. This is called an essential light. But the light of the moon is
received from the sun, for the moon is dependent on the sun for its
light; therefore, the sun, with regard to light, is the cause, and the
moon becomes the effect. The former is the ancient, the precedent, the
antecedent, while the latter is the preceded and the last.

The second sort of preexistence is the preexistence of time, and that has
no beginning. The Word of God is sanctified from time. The past, the
present, the future, all, in relation to God, are equal. Yesterday, today,
tomorrow do not exist in the sun.

In the same way there is a priority with regard to glory--that is to say,
the most glorious precedes the glorious. Therefore, the Reality of Christ,
Who is the Word of God, with regard to essence, attributes and glory,
certainly precedes the creatures. Before appearing in the human form,
the Word of God was in the utmost sanctity and glory, existing in perfect
beauty and splendor in the height of its magnificence. When through the
wisdom of God the Most High it shone from the heights of glory in the
world of the body, the Word of God, through this body, became oppressed,
so that it fell into the hands of the Jews, and became the captive of the
tyrannical and ignorant, and at last was crucified. That is why He
addressed God, saying: "Free Me from the bonds of the world of the body,
and liberate Me from this cage, so that I may ascend to the heights of
honor and glory, and attain unto the former grandeur and might which
existed before the bodily world, that I may rejoice in the eternal world
and may ascend to the original abode, the placeless world, the invisible
kingdom."
-- `Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 116

[Cerebrum123]

That is evidence of Jesus' pre-existence but not that he is of the same essence as God.

Abdu'l-Baha in his commentary on this passage writes:

There are two kinds of priorities: one is essential and is not preceded by
a cause, but its existence is in itself, as, for example, the sun has
light in itself, for its shining is not dependent on the light of other
stars. This is called an essential light. But the light of the moon is
received from the sun, for the moon is dependent on the sun for its
light; therefore, the sun, with regard to light, is the cause, and the
moon becomes the effect. The former is the ancient, the precedent, the
antecedent, while the latter is the preceded and the last.

The second sort of preexistence is the preexistence of time, and that has
no beginning. The Word of God is sanctified from time. The past, the
present, the future, all, in relation to God, are equal. Yesterday, today,
tomorrow do not exist in the sun.

In the same way there is a priority with regard to glory--that is to say,
the most glorious precedes the glorious. Therefore, the Reality of Christ,
Who is the Word of God, with regard to essence, attributes and glory,
certainly precedes the creatures. Before appearing in the human form,
the Word of God was in the utmost sanctity and glory, existing in perfect
beauty and splendor in the height of its magnificence. When through the
wisdom of God the Most High it shone from the heights of glory in the
world of the body, the Word of God, through this body, became oppressed,
so that it fell into the hands of the Jews, and became the captive of the
tyrannical and ignorant, and at last was crucified. That is why He
addressed God, saying: "Free Me from the bonds of the world of the body,
and liberate Me from this cage, so that I may ascend to the heights of
honor and glory, and attain unto the former grandeur and might which
existed before the bodily world, that I may rejoice in the eternal world
and may ascend to the original abode, the placeless world, the invisible
kingdom."
-- `Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 116

Can you show me where in the Bible that Jesus said those things? Also, this description of the preexistence of Jesus, is actually not dissimilar from explanations of the Trinity, but it doesn't go far enough, in that it doesn't acknowledge that Jesus claimed to be God, and we have given ample evidence of this. So, you either have Jesus telling the truth about Himself, a liar who said these things out of delusions of grandeur, or you have a lunatic. As a Baha'i you should surely realize that Jesus was neither lunatic, nor liar, so, He must be who He claimed, and that would be the final option, Lord.

[OmniSkeptical]

My point was that the infinitive of ειμι, ειναι does not mean to exist, but to become something. Jesus said before a world, Israel, became in front of God. IE, Before Israel started following God again. Notice the word ειναι is active and before παρα, and that κοσμος is in the accusative case. κοσμον is acted upon, and Jesus is one bringing Israel before God.

Worse yet, ειναι is present tense, and does not lend anything to pre-existence from the Greek.

[TheCovetedOne]

Assalaamualaikum,
Sheikh ahmed deedat himself had said that"put my head on the guillotine, chop it in any way you want if you show me one statement in the bible where Jesus Christ(PBUH) said i am God or Worship me". Quite obvious that none could prove it to date.
Subhanaallah and let us pray for him to get Jannat-ul-Firdous(as he no longer exists in the midst of us). Ameen and Peace.

[Chrawnus]

Assalaamualaikum,
Sheikh ahmed deedat himself had said that"put my head on the guillotine, chop it in any way you want if you show me one statement in the bible where Jesus Christ(PBUH) said i am God or Worship me". Quite obvious that none could prove it to date.
Subhanaallah and let us pray for him to get Jannat-ul-Firdous(as he no longer exists in the midst of us). Ameen and Peace.

You really believe that the only way for Christians to show that Jesus Christ was/thought He was God is for us to show a statement in the Bible where He said "I am God", or "Worship me"?

I have a counter-question for you. If Jesus didn't think that he was God, then why didn't he admonish Thomas when he called Jesus his Lord and his God?

John 20:26-29 NASB

After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."
Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Or how about when Jesus claims that you need to give the same honor you give to God to Jesus him?

John 5:19-23 NASB

Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
"For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Notice that Jesus here isn't only claiming that He should be honored, he's claiming that He should be honored in the same way the Father is honored. I.e He's claiming honor to himself that is only due to God.