One argument against the divinity of Jesus

[barnasha]

um.. God IS a "being" - I think you are confusing "being" with "creature"

No a being is something that is... "be-ing", the verb is to be.

If it exists, if it be, then it is creation, and it is within the realm of creation.

[Sparko]

No a being is something that is... "be-ing", the verb is to be.

If it exists, if it be, then it is creation, and it is within the realm of creation.

so you don't think God exists? If he doesn't exist then how did he create the universe?

[Sparko]

I realize my argument is not accessible to simpletons. I could recast it in terms that might make it more understandable, but considering the following verse from the Quran which specifies how a believer should deal with your likes, I think its best if I simply leave you with the word "Peace".

And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility and when the ignorant address them they say "Peace!" (25:63)

my my my. such hostility. So "peace" really means "shove off you moron?" in "Muslim-speak"? Is that what you are saying?

Personally I would rather just tell you to shove off instead of feigning piety while being insulting. But hey, that's just me, Honest Sparko.

Your whole argument is flawed from your first statement down to your last. I was just pointing out the flaw in your first statement. The others have already shown you that the rest of your question begging argument is illogical as well.

You have no concept of who Jesus really is, so how can you claim to conceive of a being greater than him? Don't you first have to KNOW the one you are claiming to be the lesser first?

Now shove off. er I mean "peace".

[barnasha]

so you don't think God exists? If he doesn't exist then how did he create the universe?

if the universe contains everything that exists, how could a something inside of it create the very domain which contains it?

If God exists (i.e. as a thing), what created it, and in what domain does it exist?

If a human isn't inside a fish tank, how did he set one up in his house?

[Sparko]

if the universe contains everything that exists, how could a something inside of it create the very domain which contains it?

who says the universe contains everything that exists? You are making a false assumption and then playing word games.

also is God present in the universe? yes or no? is He not everywhere?

If God exists (i.e. as a thing), what created it, and in what domain does it exist?

If a human isn't inside a fish tank, how did he set one up in his house?

If you don't think that God exists then you are not a theist and you should stop posting in Islam immediately.

and I notice you are now qualifying exist with (i.e. as a thing) - Nobody said that God exists as a "thing" or a "creature"

God exists as a spirit, a BEING. The ultimate being. Being means the same thing as "Entity" if that makes you feel any better.

[barnasha]

who says the universe contains everything that exists? You are making a false assumption and then playing word games.

What exists "outside of" the universe (or 'cosmos', I should say)?

If so, what do you call that domain?

also is God present in the universe? yes or no? is He not everywhere?

Good argument.

Presence is not physical for a non-physical being. Can God be present in your mind? (is He not everywhere?)

If you don't think that God exists then you are not a theist and you should stop posting in Islam immediately.

In Islam (which is the same monotheistic faith, fundamentally, as Judaism) God cannot "exist" as a creation "exists".

God is *defined as* the exister of that which exists.

and I notice you are now qualifying exist with (i.e. as a thing) - Nobody said that God exists as a "thing" or a "creature"

God exists as a spirit, a BEING. The ultimate being. Being means the same thing as "Entity" if that makes you feel any better.

an entity has a form, but God is formless.

You are right that 'being' could be interpreted metaphorically. I am being a bit tighter with my wording - as the case warrants if we want to be more precise. What I mean to qualify is that Abraham's god is not a being (as is a creation), therefore size, scope, time, space, none of that can be applied to it.

Or was "greater" meant in another sense than size? Power?

[Sparko]

What exists "outside of" the universe (or 'cosmos', I should say)?

in theology: God, angels, heaven, hell. All exist outside of the universe.

In secular science: strings, branes, multiple universes, etc all exist outside of our universe.

Presence is not physical for a non-physical being. Can God be present in your mind? (is He not everywhere?)

you just called him a nonphysical BEING. you lose.

In Islam (which is the same monotheistic faith, fundamentally, as Judaism) God cannot "exist" as a creation "exists".

Nobody said he exists as a created thing. You are making assumptions. Being just means a entity that exists who is a sentient (self aware) and can act.

an entity has a form, but God is formless.

Again you are making up definitions. Nothing says that an entity has to have form.

[barnasha]

in theology: God, angels, heaven, hell. All exist outside of the universe.

Very good and interesting point!

It brings up a clarification. Creation is not only the physical universe but reality itself. The mind. Spirit.


The Abrahamic specification of what is to be worshiped ("God") is that which has domain over EVERYTHING that exists.

So we can take the set of all that exists, S, and can say that God is not something that exists (is not in set S).

In secular science: strings, branes, multiple universes, etc all exist outside of our universe.

which is why i said cosmos, of which all of those are a part (strings/branes are a (theoretical) part of the universe)

you just called him a nonphysical BEING. you lose.




Nobody said he exists as a created thing. You are making assumptions. Being just means a entity that exists who is a sentient (self aware) and can act.


Again you are making up definitions. Nothing says that an entity has to have form.

Does greater means size or power?

[Sparko]

Very good and interesting point!

It brings up a clarification. Creation is not only the physical universe but reality itself. The mind. Spirit.


The Abrahamic specification of what is to be worshiped ("God") is that which has domain over EVERYTHING that exists.

That is just something you just made up. show me a quote.

So we can take the set of all that exists, S, and can say that God is not something that exists (is not in set S).

again, you are making up your own data set "all that exists" and assigning a your own meaning to it "all that is created". Exists does not equal "created".

Exists means to have a basis in reality versus not existing or having no reality.

which is why i said cosmos, of which all of those are a part (strings/branes are a (theoretical) part of the universe)

you said universe.

you just keep making up definitions and moving goal posts. I dont think you exist.

Does greater means size or power?

depends on the context.

[cbacavis]

Allow me to rephrase my logic again:

If a being greater than Jesus can be perceived, then Jesus is not God because God is the greatest being perceivable
Many beings greater than Jesus can be perceived
Therefore, Jesus is not God

This all depends on what proof there is that the second premise, of course, is true. And if Jesus is God, then the premise can't apply to Him anyway... Confused.

The Letter to the Hebrews says this about Jesus:

1. Jesus is superior to the Old Testament prophets (Hebrews 1:1-3)
2. Jesus is superior to all the angels (Hebrews 1:4-14)
3. Jesus is superior to and worthy of more glory than Moses (Hebrews 3:1-6)
4. Jesus is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, and thus is superior to Abraham. He is also superior to the Levite and Aaronic priesthoods and has a superior ministry (Hebrews 7-8)

So what being is left? Only God. And Jesus is God according to the Scriptures. You certainly can't say that anyone is greater than Jesus unless you first deny his divinity. Your argument is flawed.

[Sparko]

This all depends on what proof there is that the second premise, of course, is true. And if Jesus is God, then the premise can't apply to Him anyway... Confused.

The Letter to the Hebrews says this about Jesus:

1. Jesus is superior to the Old Testament prophets (Hebrews 1:1-3)
2. Jesus is superior to all the angels (Hebrews 1:4-14)
3. Jesus is superior to and worthy of more glory than Moses (Hebrews 3:1-6)
4. Jesus is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, and thus is superior to Abraham. He is also superior to the Levite and Aaronic priesthoods and has a superior ministry (Hebrews 7-8)

So what being is left? Only God. And Jesus is God according to the Scriptures. You certainly can't say that anyone is greater than Jesus unless you first deny his divinity. Your argument is flawed.

exactly. he has to presume that Jesus is NOT God in order for him to "perceive" anything greater than Jesus.

[barnasha]

cbacavis, abu Talib:

what does "Jesus is God" mean? Jesus is my god? Jesus is Abraham's god?

nobody in the hebrew or islamic tradition (Jesus and Paul, religious Jews, included) would worship a man (Messiah or not) as their god.

and the statement "Jesus is God" seems to be saying "Jesus is my god". Or does it also mean "Jesus is your god" ?

This all depends on what proof there is that the second premise, of course, is true. And if Jesus is God, then the premise can't apply to Him anyway...

[Sparko]

"Jesus is God" means that he is the creator of the cosmos.

whether you worship him as your god or not.

[cbacavis]

cbacavis, abu Talib:

what does "Jesus is God" mean? Jesus is my god? Jesus is Abraham's god?

Jesus on earth was God manifested in a flesh and blood body. Jesus in heaven is merely back with the Father, still of the very nature and essence of God, simply at His right hand in dominion over everything. Jesus is God. Why the semantics game?

nobody in the hebrew or islamic tradition (Jesus and Paul, religious Jews, included) would worship a man (Messiah or not) as their god.

Now what about all of these guys? They weren't Jews?
Matthew 2:2, 8, 11
Matthew 28:9
Matthew 14:31-33
Matthew 28:16-17
John 9:38

And who else worships Jesus?
Hebrews 1:6

Give me a break!

[barnasha]

Jesus is God. Why the semantics game?

it is only a semantics game if you cannot explain what your words mean, and they are hollow themselves. then that is a game. otherwise, it is a conversation.

Now what about all of these guys? They weren't Jews?

what guys?

Matthew 2:2

Saying, Where is he that is born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the east, and are come to adore him. (DRB)
Where is the king of the Jews that has been born? for we have seen his star in the east, and have come to do him homage. (Darby)

And who else worships Jesus?
Hebrews 1:6

worship also means love, it does not mean take as a god.

and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, 'And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;' (YLT)

And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. (DRB)



one should not take English translations of something too literally ...